Blogs > HNN > The New Creative Destruction

Aug 25, 2006 1:54 am


The New Creative Destruction



Mr. LeVine is professor of modern Middle Eastern history, culture, and Islamic studies at the University of California, Irvine, and author of the forthcoming books: Why They Don't Hate Us: Lifting the Veil on the Axis of Evil; and Overthrowing Geography: Jaffa, Tel Aviv and the Struggle for Palestine, 1880-1948. He is also a contributor, with Viggo Mortensen and Pilar Perez, to Twilight of Empire: Responses to Occupation. Click here to access his homepage.

If there is one question I could ask Hassan Nasrallah today, it would be this: When did you begin planning for the reconstruction of southern Lebanon, before you kidnapped two Israeli soldiers on July 12, or only after it became clear how much of southern Lebanon Israel was willing to destroy to “win” its war against you?

Either way, it was the latest master-stroke in a string of decisions that have confounded Israel, the United States, and the world at large. Indeed, while critics of the Israeli invasion claim--with increasing evidence--that Israel planned the attack well in advance (even with the support from the Bush administration) it now appears that it was Hezbollah who suckered Israel into a war for which it had perfectly planned each component: the bait--the kidnapping of two soldiers; the military strategy--tunnels, missile barrages, and advanced anti-tank weapons; and the post fighting reconstruction--a large scale effort that only Hezbollah, and not the feckless Lebanese government, is capable of undertaking.


Call it the new Creative Destruction; and the “new” Middle East it is creating will be very different than the one dreamed of by Bush Administration planners and their allies in Israel.

The idea of “creative destruction” first was popularized by the Austrian economist Joseph Schumpeter more than half a century ago to describe how capitalism simultaneously destroys existing social systems and profits from the economic and social systems that take their place. The Bush Administration, and proponents of globalization more broadly, latched onto creative destruction as a way of describing the process by which they hoped to create their new world orders.

For both, in the words of neocon philosopher and Bush advisor Michael Ledeen, the United States is “an awesome revolutionary force” for whom creative destruction is “our middle name.” A similar faith in Israel's role in the Middle East was behind Shimon Peres's idea of a “New Middle East” in which Israel would be its cultural and economic engine. This is the vision upon which the Oslo peace process was founded, and ultimately foundered.

But in keeping with this philosophy, the Israeli military thought that by destroying thousands of Lebanese bodies and buildings it could take out Hezbollah, and in so doing create a new and more favorable regional balance of power. What it didn't count on was that Hezbollah was using the same principle of violence as the instigator of social and political change, only in reverse: each bombed out building and lifeless baby created another opportunity for Hezbollah to show its patriotism, charity and efficiency.

Now, as Israeli soldiers begin withdrawing from Lebanon in what most every Lebanese believes is defeat, Hezbollah fighters exchange their Kalashnikovs for hard hats and bulldozers, clearing away the rubble, handing out money, food and furniture to the homeless, and rebuilding the roads and buildings that the war they precipitated destroyed—all with an unlimited supply of funds from Israel and America's main enemy and ultimate target of the war, Iran.

In short, Hezbollah has been able to eat its cake and have it too: It has stood up to the mighty IDF and either coopted or cowed its domestic opposition (which collectively had more support than it did before the war). Then, before anyone could criticize it for the magnitude of destruction its actions unleashed, it has begun a massive, well-funded rebuilding effort. If only the Bush administration had acted as astutely in Iraq.

What can the United States and Israel learn from the last five weeks? Well, they've been pretty creative about destroying things--as a tour of Iraq, Lebanon or Gaza makes clear--in the process unleashing waves of chaos that they assumed could be managed to their advantage. But Nasrallah's strategy has shown him to be a true master of both sides of the creative destruction equation. That is, he understands that creative destruction must create a viable system that gives people a stake in their future if the process is to be completed.

Because of this, if Secretary Rice really heard the birth pangs of a new Middle East, the baby they heralded is not America's or Israel's; it's Hezbollah's. Will we still love it? Or will we abandon it as if it's not our responsibility? These are hard lessons to swallow, but we'd do well to learn from it, and quickly. Our "enemies" already are.



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Patrick M. Ebbitt - 9/24/2006

“Moses created a new state and a new religion, which makes him one of the most revolutionary leaders of all time. The execution of the sinners was necessary to confirm Moses’ authority.”

“Paradoxically, preserving liberty may require the rule of a single leader, a dictator, willing to use those dreaded ‘extraordinary measures', which few know how, or are willing, to employ."

“We should not be outraged by Machiavelli’s call for a temporary dictatorship as an effective means to either revivify or restore freedom.” -- Michael A. Ledeen

That Ledeen is infamous for his 'Creative Destruction' motif he is not a Marxist but, a full fledged Fascist with special interest in the sweetly flavored Italian brand. His dealings with the P2 Fascists of Licio Gelli in the early 80's is legendary. He was a central figure in Iran Contra under NSA's Robert McFarlane and was called upon by the Bush's to arrange the Yellowcake Forgery in the run-up to the current Iraq War debacle with the assistance of his Italian connections/benefactors.

Ledeen who was denied tenure at UWM for his far out leanings/ poor scholarship/ intellectually negligible writings & plagiarism/ opportunistic motivations is the lead proponent of the new American fascist state creep that has engulfed Washington and is spreading across the nation at breakneck speed. His idea of creative destruction is to destroy the United States and replace it with a new American Reich tied at the hip to an equally new and fascist Israel.

http://www.tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1087&;PHPSESSID=9ba90947ac9d6b329be064a55675b016

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michael/ledeen.php3

http://www.enigmabooks.com/jifi.htm


Patrick M. Ebbitt - 9/24/2006

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jerusalem/Dayr-Yasin/

http://www.angelfire.com/ia/palestinefoever/differnttypesofzionsts.html

For anyone to believe that Israel is free of blame is either delusional, stoned or in serious denial.

Until we all realize that men of all stripes can brutalize fellow men with equal zeal we'll never achieve peace or advance as a collective being. The path to enlightenment will be long/difficult but, to extinction treacherous/swift.


john crocker - 9/9/2006

The military presence in those countries is a hold over from the cold war. It has bought us the ability to project military force quickly almost anywhere on earth.

"From the $2.8 billion 85% has to be used (mandatory) in the US military market..."
The cynical way to say this would be that the US gives Israel $2.34 billion in its most high tech armaments every year.

Every missile fired by Israel is in the eyes of many a proxy missile of the US. To ignore this under ordinary circumstances would be foolish. Our fates in the region are tied.

You have said before that you read the Israeli papers. How much space do they devote to American foreign policy? How much space do they give to the atrocities in Rwanda and Somalia? It would be interesting to compare the results.


john crocker - 9/9/2006

I am in full agreement with you that the situations in Africa and Central Asia should be reported on much more. Where we disagree is where the time for that reporting should come from. I think that the conflict between Israel and its neighbors should recieve coverage. The US and Israel are politically, financially and militarily linked. How Israel deals with the conflicts it faces has an impact on the US and Europe. It is in our interests to understand that impact. I have to admit though, that America is not in much of a position to lecture Israel on foreign policy at the moment.


Yehudi Amitz - 9/9/2006

The real tax dollars go to Europe ($150 billion/year) Japan and S.Korea (about $25 billion/year each). US has in Europe about 100000 soldiers and 280000 civilians under the defense department budget and about 40000 soldiers in Japan and 40000 in S.Korea but no one uses these countries as scapegoats. Israel gets all the bad rap for the meager $2.8 billion/year. From the $2.8 billion 85% has to be used (mandatory) in the US military market, transforming it into a subsidy for about 10000 US jobs.


Yehudi Amitz - 9/9/2006

That's my point, leave the Jews alone and wriet about real crimes!


john crocker - 9/9/2006

Read more carefully. The first sentence should make it clear that the referent of "fluff" is not the atrocities committed in sub-Saharan Africa.
To be more clear, the fluff I feel should be replaced by these stories is celebrity marriages, divorces, kidnapping of cute white girls, shark attacks, toy trends etc.


Yehudi Amitz - 9/8/2006

Did you really write "fluff stories"? Are you saying that the killing of millions isn't newsworthy?


john crocker - 9/8/2006

There has been far too little coverage of the atrocities in sub-Saharan Africa. The time for that coverage should come from the fluff stories rather than from newsworthy events.


Jim Seth Brown - 9/8/2006

"And what you're missing is that, thanks to our lack of exposure to other places and issues, Israel and Palestine are the hot topics of the day."
Mr Tuley you couldnt have put it any better. The world hates jews plane and simple. And the media would rather make Israel look terrible than report on the crisis of darfur. mr. amitz's post shows that statistically.
And thanks Tuley for hiding from your bs post. posting false information about the death count and trying to make Israel look like the bad guy.


Yehudi Amitz - 9/8/2006

Mr. Tuley,
Everything you say it's appliable to most of the vocabulary I used. My point is that there is too much Israel in the news and historical research and other items should be brought into the lights of the media and research.


john crocker - 9/8/2006

Israel is mentioned more in the media because of its close ties with the West. Israel benefits far more from this realationship than it suffers. The only suffering Israel seems to endure due to this relationship is increased media attention and its attendant scrutiny, in return it recieves economic and military support. You seem to entirely focus on the scrutiny and dismiss all of the aid. Why is that you think that more talk of Israel = more hate of Israel. Perhaps you should stop looking for the motes in the eyes of others.


Philip Tuley - 9/8/2006

And what you're missing is that, thanks to our lack of exposure to other places and issues, Israel and Palestine are the hot topics of the day.

What the statistics don't tell you is whether or not Israel is being accused of crimes, or if the post is in fact defending Israel against charges, or if the post is even making fun of the idea of the charges in the first place. All the statistics show is that, in the same post, those words are together, even if they have no bearing on each other, such as "Israel is a great place to visit. Did you know that Idi Amin commited vast war crimes against humanity?" Yep, that sentence would now link Israel and "war crimes" in the google statistics bank. Heck, even your own post will now skew the results.

Oh, and for Jim Seth Brown, no, I'm not that blind, I am that savvy when it comes to using both statistics and Google.


Yehudi Amitz - 9/8/2006

That's the idea Israel/Palestine shouldn't be the main news/history item. If the research and publishing will be involved with real crimes against humanity, the hit count for Rwanda and Somalia will go up and I'll have no reason to boost the Israel/Palestine hit count.


john crocker - 9/8/2006

Your contention seems to be that the hit counts you listed somehow show widespread anti-semitism. The most that the hit count shows is that Israel and Palestine are more often discussed than Rwanda or Somalia. Your frequent posts boost the hit count for Israel, Israeli, Palestine and Palestinian. The hit count provides no context and so no meaning.


Yehudi Amitz - 9/8/2006

You are so convinced that "almost" (statistically) only the Jews are to blame for "almost" everything that a discussion with you would be totally unproductive but one thing is very clear : planting words is a good way to brainwash minds.


Jim Seth Brown - 9/7/2006

Are you that blind Tuley?


Philip Tuley - 9/7/2006

No it doesn't, it only proves a trend in discussions on HNN, and even that isn't entirely real, as the words themselves confound the results. For example, it is possible that writing the sentence "Israel invaded Palestine using only Israeli arms provided by Israeli manufacturers, while not using anything not made in Israel," would increase the hits to 2 for Israel, 2 for Israeli, and one hit for Palestine.

In short, the statistics are, by and large, meaningless, as they are far too easily confounded.


Jim Seth Brown - 9/7/2006

Where are you Tuley. Still looking for a great way to denounce the facts I put up.


Yehudi Amitz - 9/7/2006

Click on
"Read the Remainder of this Comment"


Philip Tuley - 9/7/2006

It proves nothing at all. Google itself tells you not to draw too many inferences from its statistics.


john crocker - 9/7/2006

What does this prove?


Yehudi Amitz - 9/6/2006


hnn.us google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:22:30 2006

1) About 14300 search results for "israel" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:33 2006.
2) About 7300 search results for "israeli" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:34 2006.
3) About 2930 search results for "palestine" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:35 2006.
4) About 4950 search results for "palestinian" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:36 2006.
5) About 4680 search results for "israelis" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:37 2006.
6) About 3920 search results for "palestinians" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:38 2006.
7) About 307 search results for "jenin" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:39 2006.
8) About 1080 search results for "intifada" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:40 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 39467

1) About 17 search results for "ruanda" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:40 2006.
2) About 1010 search results for "rwanda" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:41 2006.
3) About 83 search results for "tutsi" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:42 2006.
4) About 134 search results for "tutsis" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:43 2006.
5) About 660 search results for "darfur" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:43 2006.
6) About 520 search results for "kashmir" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:44 2006.
7) About 578 search results for "chechnya" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:45 2006.
8) About 241 search results for "cyprus" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:46 2006.
9) About 35 search results for "grozny" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:49 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:hnn.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:53 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 3278


ON Wed Sep 6 11:22:53 2006 a google.com query on the site hnn.us returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 8.306% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================


pbs.org google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:22:53 2006
1) About 7420 search results for "israel" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:54 2006.
2) About 3900 search results for "israeli" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:54 2006.
3) About 1630 search results for "palestine" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:55 2006.
4) About 2970 search results for "palestinian" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:56 2006.
5) About 2020 search results for "israelis" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:57 2006.
6) About 2550 search results for "palestinians" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:58 2006.
7) About 148 search results for "jenin" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:22:59 2006.
8) About 370 search results for "intifada" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:03 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 21008

1) About 12 search results for "ruanda" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:03 2006.
2) About 1540 search results for "rwanda" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:04 2006.
3) About 198 search results for "tutsi" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:05 2006.
4) About 224 search results for "tutsis" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:06 2006.
5) About 839 search results for "darfur" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:09 2006.
6) About 519 search results for "kashmir" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:10 2006.
7) About 906 search results for "chechnya" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:11 2006.
8) About 290 search results for "cyprus" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:12 2006.
9) About 315 search results for "grozny" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:13 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:pbs.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:13 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 4843


ON Wed Sep 6 11:23:13 2006 a google.com query on the site pbs.org returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 23.053% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================


chnm.gmu.edu google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:23:13 2006
1) About 2550 search results for "israel" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:14 2006.
2) About 123 search results for "israeli" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:15 2006.
3) About 103 search results for "palestine" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:15 2006.
4) About 70 search results for "palestinian" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:16 2006.
5) About 35 search results for "israelis" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:17 2006.
6) About 26 search results for "palestinians" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:18 2006.
7) About 1 search results for "jenin" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:18 2006.
8) About 4 search results for "intifada" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:19 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 2912

1) About 13 search results for "ruanda" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:19 2006.
2) About 173 search results for "rwanda" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:20 2006.
3) About 0 search results for "tutsi" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:21 2006.
4) About 1 search results for "tutsis" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:21 2006.
5) About 6 search results for "darfur" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:22 2006.
6) About 24 search results for "kashmir" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:23 2006.
7) About 9 search results for "chechnya" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:24 2006.
8) About 147 search results for "cyprus" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:25 2006.
9) About 0 search results for "grozny" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:25 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:chnm.gmu.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:25 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 373


ON Wed Sep 6 11:23:25 2006 a google.com query on the site chnm.gmu.edu returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 12.809% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================


score.rims.k12.ca.us google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:23:25 2006
1) About 68 search results for "israel" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:30 2006.
2) About 23 search results for "israeli" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:31 2006.
3) About 10 search results for "palestine" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:32 2006.
4) About 13 search results for "palestinian" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:32 2006.
5) About 2 search results for "israelis" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:33 2006.
6) About 8 search results for "palestinians" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:34 2006.
7) About 0 search results for "jenin" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:34 2006.
8) About 2 search results for "intifada" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:34 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 126

1) About 0 search results for "ruanda" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:35 2006.
2) About 2 search results for "rwanda" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:35 2006.
3) About 0 search results for "tutsi" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:36 2006.
4) About 0 search results for "tutsis" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:38 2006.
5) About 0 search results for "darfur" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:38 2006.
6) About 6 search results for "kashmir" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:39 2006.
7) About 0 search results for "chechnya" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:39 2006.
8) About 6 search results for "cyprus" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:40 2006.
9) About 0 search results for "grozny" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:40 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:score.rims.k12.ca.us query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:41 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 14


ON Wed Sep 6 11:23:41 2006 a google.com query on the site score.rims.k12.ca.us returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 11.111% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================


www.digitalhistory.uh.edu google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:23:41 2006
1) About 58 search results for "israel" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:42 2006.
2) About 13 search results for "israeli" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:43 2006.
3) About 13 search results for "palestine" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:44 2006.
4) About 6 search results for "palestinian" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:44 2006.
5) About 2 search results for "israelis" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:45 2006.
6) About 5 search results for "palestinians" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:45 2006.
7) About 0 search results for "jenin" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:46 2006.
8) About 0 search results for "intifada" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:46 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 97

1) About 0 search results for "ruanda" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:46 2006.
2) About 4 search results for "rwanda" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:47 2006.
3) About 0 search results for "tutsi" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:47 2006.
4) About 1 search results for "tutsis" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:48 2006.
5) About 0 search results for "darfur" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:48 2006.
6) About 1 search results for "kashmir" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:49 2006.
7) About 2 search results for "chechnya" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:49 2006.
8) About 2 search results for "cyprus" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:50 2006.
9) About 0 search results for "grozny" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:50 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:www.digitalhistory.uh.edu query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:51 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 10


ON Wed Sep 6 11:23:51 2006 a google.com query on the site www.digitalhistory.uh.edu returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 10.309% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================


www.bbc.co.uk/history/ google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:23:51 2006
1) About 34 search results for "israel" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:52 2006.
2) About 3 search results for "israeli" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:55 2006.
3) About 42 search results for "palestine" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:56 2006.
4) About 5 search results for "palestinian" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:56 2006.
5) About 1 search results for "israelis" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:23:57 2006.
6) About 1 search results for "palestinians" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:00 2006.
7) About 0 search results for "jenin" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:01 2006.
8) About 0 search results for "intifada" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:01 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 86

1) About 0 search results for "ruanda" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:02 2006.
2) About 11 search results for "rwanda" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:03 2006.
3) About 0 search results for "tutsi" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:03 2006.
4) About 0 search results for "tutsis" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:03 2006.
5) About 3 search results for "darfur" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:04 2006.
6) About 5 search results for "kashmir" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:05 2006.
7) About 3 search results for "chechnya" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:05 2006.
8) About 11 search results for "cyprus" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:06 2006.
9) About 0 search results for "grozny" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:06 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:www.bbc.co.uk/history/ query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:09 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 33


ON Wed Sep 6 11:24:09 2006 a google.com query on the site www.bbc.co.uk/history/ returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 38.372% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================


www.bbc.co.uk google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:24:09 2006
1) About 64500 search results for "israel" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:10 2006.
2) About 5070 search results for "israeli" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:11 2006.
3) About 5590 search results for "palestine" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:12 2006.
4) About 5630 search results for "palestinian" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:13 2006.
5) About 749 search results for "israelis" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:13 2006.
6) About 1110 search results for "palestinians" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:14 2006.
7) About 693 search results for "jenin" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:15 2006.
8) About 982 search results for "intifada" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:16 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 84324

1) About 606 search results for "ruanda" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:17 2006.
2) About 4670 search results for "rwanda" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:18 2006.
3) About 258 search results for "tutsi" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:19 2006.
4) About 906 search results for "tutsis" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:19 2006.
5) About 5230 search results for "darfur" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:21 2006.
6) About 1390 search results for "kashmir" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:22 2006.
7) About 710 search results for "chechnya" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:23 2006.
8) About 4830 search results for "cyprus" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:24 2006.
9) About 192 search results for "grozny" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:25 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:www.bbc.co.uk query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:25 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 18792


ON Wed Sep 6 11:24:25 2006 a google.com query on the site www.bbc.co.uk returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 22.285% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================


www.historyteacher.net google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:24:25 2006
1) About 33 search results for "israel" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:26 2006.
2) About 19 search results for "israeli" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:27 2006.
3) About 19 search results for "palestine" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:27 2006.
4) About 11 search results for "palestinian" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:28 2006.
5) About 5 search results for "israelis" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:29 2006.
6) About 3 search results for "palestinians" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:32 2006.
7) About 0 search results for "jenin" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:33 2006.
8) About 6 search results for "intifada" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:33 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 96

1) About 0 search results for "ruanda" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:34 2006.
2) About 4 search results for "rwanda" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:34 2006.
3) About 0 search results for "tutsi" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:35 2006.
4) About 0 search results for "tutsis" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:35 2006.
5) About 3 search results for "darfur" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:36 2006.
6) About 7 search results for "kashmir" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:36 2006.
7) About 0 search results for "chechnya" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:37 2006.
8) About 6 search results for "cyprus" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:37 2006.
9) About 0 search results for "grozny" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:38 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:www.historyteacher.net query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:38 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 20


ON Wed Sep 6 11:24:38 2006 a google.com query on the site www.historyteacher.net returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 20.833% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================


www.historychannel.com google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:24:38 2006
1) About 670 search results for "israel" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:39 2006.
2) About 387 search results for "israeli" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:39 2006.
3) About 268 search results for "palestine" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:40 2006.
4) About 191 search results for "palestinian" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:44 2006.
5) About 70 search results for "israelis" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:45 2006.
6) About 48 search results for "palestinians" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:46 2006.
7) About 4 search results for "jenin" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:46 2006.
8) About 10 search results for "intifada" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:47 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 1648

1) About 6 search results for "ruanda" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:48 2006.
2) About 55 search results for "rwanda" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:49 2006.
3) About 13 search results for "tutsi" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:49 2006.
4) About 2 search results for "tutsis" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:50 2006.
5) About 0 search results for "darfur" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:50 2006.
6) About 35 search results for "kashmir" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:54 2006.
7) About 23 search results for "chechnya" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:55 2006.
8) About 59 search results for "cyprus" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:56 2006.
9) About 6 search results for "grozny" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:56 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:www.historychannel.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:57 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 199


ON Wed Sep 6 11:24:57 2006 a google.com query on the site www.historychannel.com returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 12.075% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================


www.historyplace.com google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:24:57 2006
1) About 37 search results for "israel" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:57 2006.
2) About 14 search results for "israeli" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:58 2006.
3) About 8 search results for "palestine" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:59 2006.
4) About 8 search results for "palestinian" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:24:59 2006.
5) About 3 search results for "israelis" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:00 2006.
6) About 2 search results for "palestinians" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:00 2006.
7) About 1 search results for "jenin" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:00 2006.
8) About 0 search results for "intifada" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:01 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 73

1) About 0 search results for "ruanda" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:01 2006.
2) About 15 search results for "rwanda" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:02 2006.
3) About 5 search results for "tutsi" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:03 2006.
4) About 4 search results for "tutsis" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:03 2006.
5) About 0 search results for "darfur" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:03 2006.
6) About 0 search results for "kashmir" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:04 2006.
7) About 2 search results for "chechnya" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:04 2006.
8) About 1 search results for "cyprus" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:05 2006.
9) About 0 search results for "grozny" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:05 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:www.historyplace.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:06 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 27


ON Wed Sep 6 11:25:06 2006 a google.com query on the site www.historyplace.com returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 36.986% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================


www.smithsonianeducation.org google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:25:06 2006
1) About 4 search results for "israel" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:06 2006.
2) About 2 search results for "israeli" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:06 2006.
3) About 0 search results for "palestine" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:07 2006.
4) About 0 search results for "palestinian" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:07 2006.
5) About 0 search results for "israelis" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:10 2006.
6) About 0 search results for "palestinians" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:10 2006.
7) About 0 search results for "jenin" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:11 2006.
8) About 0 search results for "intifada" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:11 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 6

1) About 0 search results for "ruanda" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:12 2006.
2) About 0 search results for "rwanda" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:12 2006.
3) About 0 search results for "tutsi" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:12 2006.
4) About 0 search results for "tutsis" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:13 2006.
5) About 0 search results for "darfur" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:13 2006.
6) About 0 search results for "kashmir" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:14 2006.
7) About 0 search results for "chechnya" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:14 2006.
8) About 0 search results for "cyprus" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:17 2006.
9) About 0 search results for "grozny" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:17 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:www.smithsonianeducation.org query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:18 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 0


ON Wed Sep 6 11:25:18 2006 a google.com query on the site www.smithsonianeducation.org returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 0.000% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================


www.TheHistoryNet.com google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:25:18 2006
1) About 8 search results for "israel" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:18 2006.
2) About 6 search results for "israeli" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:19 2006.
3) About 0 search results for "palestine" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:19 2006.
4) About 0 search results for "palestinian" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:20 2006.
5) About 2 search results for "israelis" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:20 2006.
6) About 0 search results for "palestinians" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:21 2006.
7) About 0 search results for "jenin" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:21 2006.
8) About 0 search results for "intifada" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:21 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 16

1) About 0 search results for "ruanda" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:22 2006.
2) About 0 search results for "rwanda" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:23 2006.
3) About 0 search results for "tutsi" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:23 2006.
4) About 0 search results for "tutsis" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:24 2006.
5) About 0 search results for "darfur" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:24 2006.
6) About 0 search results for "kashmir" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:24 2006.
7) About 0 search results for "chechnya" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:25 2006.
8) About 1 search results for "cyprus" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:25 2006.
9) About 0 search results for "grozny" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:26 2006.
10) About 0 search results for "janjuid" on site:www.TheHistoryNet.com query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:26 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 1


ON Wed Sep 6 11:25:26 2006 a google.com query on the site www.TheHistoryNet.com returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 6.250% from the Israel/Palestine results

=======================================================================================

English language google.com statistics for: Wed Sep 6 11:25:28 2006

1) About 519,000,000 search results for "israel" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:34 2006.
2) About 143,000,000 search results for "israeli" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:35 2006.
3) About 68,100,000 search results for "palestine" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:36 2006.
4) About 84,500,000 search results for "palestinian" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:36 2006.
5) About 15,600,000 search results for "israelis" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:37 2006.
6) About 29,900,000 search results for "palestinians" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:38 2006.
7) About 1,560,000 search results for "jenin" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:42 2006.
8) About 5,380,000 search results for "intifada" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:43 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 867,040,000

1) About 746,000 search results for "ruanda" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:43 2006.
2) About 123,000,000 search results for "rwanda" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:44 2006.
3) About 1,800,000 search results for "tutsi" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:44 2006.
4) About 589,000 search results for "tutsis" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:45 2006.
5) About 31,400,000 search results for "darfur" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:46 2006.
6) About 22,700,000 search results for "kashmir" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:47 2006.
7) About 6,390,000 search results for "chechnya" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:48 2006.
8) About 169,000,000 search results for "cyprus" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:48 2006.
9) About 1,070,000 search results for "grozny" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:49 2006.
10) About 9 search results for "janjuid" on English language sites, query executed on Wed Sep 6 11:25:50 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 356,695,009


ON Wed Sep 6 11:25:50 2006 a google.com query on the on English language sites
returns a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 41.139 % from the Israel/Palestine results


Jim Seth Brown - 9/4/2006

"In the Lebanese conflict, Israel killed roughly 25 civilians per Hezbollah fighter."

Over the last two days the IDF dropped leaflets over Lebanon containing lists of Hezbollah terrorists killed in fighting with IDF forces. The lists contain the names of 180 terrorists killed and whose identities were verified by IDF forces. (The IDF holds the names of additional Hezbollah terrorists whose deaths also have been confirmed.)

According to IDF estimates, over 530 Hezbollah terrorists have been killed since the start of the fighting.

The IDF has also broadcast the lists of these names to the Lebanese public, intermittently breaking into Hezbollah broadcasts on "Al Manar" television and "Nur" radio station.
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&;id=7&clr=1&docid=56664.EN

Now lets get your facts straight you claim that Israel killed 25 lebanese for one Hezbollah fighter. Which brings the Hezbollah body count to around 36 assuming 900 lebanese civilians died, as Al Jazzerah has said.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C7EAF8F1-20DB-421E-86EF-0F5CD679CF69.htm
Yet the IDF has documented and verified 180 Hezbollah fighters dead, and estimated their death toll in the 500's. Now for the confirmed Hezbollah deaths that's about 5:1, not your propoganda numbers of 25:1.
Now how about your research. This is about as obvious as it gets.
And you say their were aviodable civilian casualties, and I daresay you would use Qana as an explanation. But why dont you look at this website that might shed some light on the tactics of these evil terrorists in Lebanon that cause the deaths of their own people. And the information comes from several sources all with different support for Israel like Ha Aretz. A paper Mark LeVine thinks is fair and balanced.
http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=5726


Philip Tuley - 9/4/2006

I've been reading this exchange and staying out. All of a sudden I see a possible glimmer of light.

Jim, if I may call you that, my problem with your writings isn't your support of Israel, it's your research.

Jews have, throughout the length of their history, been attacked and persecuted, that we agree on. Israel is a good idea, and should exist. The people of Israel should have a right to peace, that we agree on.

My problem lies with incorrect propaganda, on both sides, and with killing in general, and killing civilians in specific, regardless of the source.

In the Lebanese conflict, Israel killed roughly 25 civilians per Hezbollah fighter. A great many of those deaths have turned out to be totally avoidable, having no basis in military strategy. Some of them were unavoidable, given that there was a war going on. I unequivocally denounce the methods that the Israeli military forces used when being indiscriminate in their attacks. Frankly, Israel could have handled this whole mess entirely different, and the problem now lies in the extreme amount of favorable PR within the Lebanese and Islamic community for Nasrallah. And that was part of Mark's post.

I also, unequivocally condemn the rocket attacks by Hezbollah. They were despicable, in that they were designed to do one thing - kill Israelis regardless of any civilian status.

You cannot support peace by demanding that only one side behave itself. If we are to see peace, both sides have to stop targeting innocents. In this past conflict, neither did.

As to the history of Islam, you challenged me once in a retort as to my sources. I have spent many years studying Islam. I have read much of the Islamic sources on jurisprudence, numerous texts on the history of Islam, and critical evaluations of their society, published both within and without the muslim world. I have also done the same with Jewish history, but for a much longer period of time. As a child I spent roughly half my time, until I left my home after graduating high school, with my next-door neighbors, who were Jewish refugees from Germany, having left just prior to Kristallnacht. They were as close as grandparents to me, since my grandparents lived far away.

I encourage you to try to shift your thinking a bit, to stop thinking that conflict is the solution to the area's problems. Until we can get a major shift in the paradigm that says that one side or the other is justified in killing their neighbors, we are doomed to watch this continue to happen.


Jim Seth Brown - 9/4/2006

Alright Johansen, ill concede one thing to Tuley and that is that the Ottoman Empire is a Muslim empire. Other than that he has the whole thing wrong. The point of those facts which true are to show how since basically the founding of religion the Jews have been the world's scapegoats. From exile and torture by the Romans and the Christian Empires to the pogroms in Russia to the crusades to the Expulsion of all Jews in Spain, and in the Arab countries in 1948, and the current terror that Israeli's face every day from fascist Muslims. These people only want peace and to be left alone. What has any Muslim country ever given Israel for peace. Israel captures land from syria, Jordan, and Egypt in a war that those countries started unprovoked. And Israel gives back the Sinai peninsula, just for recognition that it exists and for a "peace." Couple years later sadat is killed. Syria too, they give back parts of the golan heights. They keep giving and giving and they get nothing in return. And the palestinians. Funny how when gaza was controlled by egypt and when jordan controlled the west bank, they were not crying bloody murder. But when Israel takes control, they start to care.

This is the truth and this is why people like you and Tuley are screwing up our world creating more ignorant airheads like yourself. That are basically spokespersons for the terrorists spreading the one thing they love. Anti-semitism.

And check out this website. Maybe you will learn something. http://www.theforgottenrefugees.com/


Edward Johansen - 9/3/2006

Yeah, that was about halfway through the discussion, and wasn't a full paragraph for each of the 18 points, as you claimed. Furthermore, it still is riddled with inaccuracies, as Mr. Tuley later pointed out.

You really are delusional.


Jim Seth Brown - 9/3/2006

Maybe the English language has changed in my lifetime but this isnt two sentences. And if you read what I wrote you would know that this post countered every thought he wrote.

First of all Mr. Tuley you would be wrong again.

1&3. First of all you are wrong again for these. The facts say Israel was founded then and ruled for a thousand years which is true and then, had a continuing presence, also true. Also their were no islamic kingdoms until after 570 C.E because Mohammed hadnt been born yet.
2. First of all Palestine is not an established geographic term from 1194 B.C. http://www.levitt.com/essays/palestine.html. First of all the term was not used until the Church historian Esebius mentioned in 300 A.D. It was made as a way of taking away the natural Jewish right to the land.
4. Israel was not ruled by a Muslim country except for the brief time during the crusades when the church came to take it back. Other than that it was under byzantine and ottoman empire control.
5. Jerusalem was founded by David in that he procured the area for the building of the temple, which created Jerusalem as the capital.
6. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&;;lr=&q=is+Jerusalem+mentioned+in+the+koran. The results speak for themselves.
7. Mohammed coming to Jerusalem another farce. Their was no mosque in Jerusalem at the time of his night journey to the farthest mosque, only rubble from the last Jewish temple.
8. Just shows they already have their holy city.
12. The Jews assimilated fine. Thats why they have a refugee problem as bad as the arab countries do. NOT.
14. And who cares of the weaponry of the Palestinians, if they are trying to kill innocent Israeli's their should be no stopping Israel in their force to use.
15. Were talking about how great the Jordanian occupation of Jerusalem was not Christian issues thousands of years ago. And if you havent already noticed Jews and Christians have made amends unlike Jews and Muslims.

So their you have it all of your farces have been countered all of your misinterpretations have been pointed out. The points you didnt counter show that you even cant excuse the appalling behavior that is and was exhibited to Israel and might help you to understand their predicament. And it will show you that these people that threaten Israel must die.


Edward Johansen - 9/3/2006

I didn't have to post a list of your excessively undeveloped and unthought remarks, the last exchange you had with Mr. Tuley was enough to make my point.

You had lied, saying that you had posted "paragraphs" responding to each of his points, when in fact you'd posted about two sentences. You then reponded childishly to his response to yours, he called you on it, and so am I.


john crocker - 9/3/2006

Why is more interest in Israel indicative of prejudice?

More articles and posts on Israel and Palestine indicates more interest in and/or more controversy on these topics, not prejudice against Israel.

There is no serious debate and certainly no debate on this site about the crimes in the other places you mentioned. I believe that we are all in agreement that the events in Rwanda and Darfur are tragic and the response of the world has been shameful. Threads tend to be short when people are in agreement.

Another and probably more important factor in the heightened interest in Israel on this sight is the special relationship that Israel shares with the US. If Rwanda shared this relationship with the US events would not likely have unfolded in the way that they did.

Israel, by virtue of their close economic and military relationship with the US is held to a higher standard than countries that do not benefit from that support. I don't think many in Israel would turn away the economic and military support of the US in return for less criticism.


Jim Seth Brown - 9/3/2006

Come on. You are going to critcize me without putting forth any evidence. Even Tuley is better than you. Maybe if you want to actually bring up a coherent arguement with actual facts or research ill respond to your nonsense post. And if you had looked in my previous posts you would see that I post no different than Tuley. We both present facts illuminating the good sides of our arguements. Their's no differenece in the way we debate. However your obvious support for his ideas blinds you and basically makes you ignorant. So quit the accusations of calling me a Ann Coulter, because your post contained the fartherst thing from substance.


Edward Johansen - 9/3/2006

Mr. Brown,
I went through and looked at the discussions from both you and Mr. Tuley, including the last one where he called you a liar, and I have to say that he seems to be correct. You do not seem to have any grasp on Islam or the history of Israel, you do not seem to have any grasp on research methods, and, when confronted, you resort to childish replies, such as this last one.
Nothing you have written has actually responded in any credible way to Mr. Tuley's writings. Furthermore, the rest of your posts are just about as bad. You seem to emulate Ann Coulter's style - lots of wild statements and no substance to back them up.


Jim Seth Brown - 9/2/2006

Amen


Yehudi Amitz - 9/2/2006

HNN.US google.com statistics for: Sat Sep 2 13:20:44 2006

About 15400 results for israel on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:50 2006.
About 6900 results for israeli on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:51 2006.
About 2850 results for palestine on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:52 2006.
About 5110 results for palestinian on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:53 2006.
About 4700 results for israelis on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:54 2006.
About 3820 results for palestinians on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:55 2006.

The number of results for Israel/Palestine: 38780

About 6 results for ruanda on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:56 2006.
About 82 results for tutsi on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:56 2006.
About 131 results for tutsis on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:57 2006.
About 647 results for darfur on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:58 2006.
About 509 results for kashmir on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:59 2006.
About 560 results for chechnya on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:20:59 2006.
About 211 results for cyprus on site:hnn.us query executed on Sat Sep 2 13:21:00 2006.

The number of results for real crimes against humanity : 2146


ON Sat Sep 2 13:21:00 2006 a google.com query on the site HNN.US returns
a number of results about real crimes against humanity in the world
representing about 5.53378029912326 % from the Israel/Palestine results


Jim Seth Brown - 9/2/2006

First of all I put the links to the info in my post and One sentence is enough to put down your bs.

Oh, and once more, in much the same way that Christianity claims its roots in Judaeism, so does Islam. Hence the statement that the religion predates Muhammad.

And that statement pretty much makes you look like an Idiot. Christians do claim their roots in Judaism, true. But they do not claim that their were any Christians until after Jesus. Islam believes its roots in Judiasm, but their were no people of Islam until after Mohammed. And that is fact. So chew that and come up with a coherent arguement with maybe some facts so I can have a challenge debunking your lies.


Philip Tuley - 9/2/2006

And, once more, you try to rewrite history. Or, to be more succinct, you lie.

My post, under the discussion of Mark's "Dead Tired" entry, post # 95917, on August 20 at 4:30 am, under the thread, "Re: this is Reality," was so long that they had a link to the rest of it. This was my last attempt to address the text that you lifted, without critically examining its contents, from the internet. I noted, by the way, that you never gave any source for your "facts."

Your reply, in its entirety was -
"Islam wasnt even a thought then. That religion wasnt founded until almost 600 A.D. "

Yep, there's your beautiful, one paragraph per point response.

In short, you have again lied.

Oh, and once more, in much the same way that Christianity claims its roots in Judaeism, so does Islam. Hence the statement that the religion predates Muhammad.

And finally, you never have been able to show any serious research capabilities, and I do not expect better from you now. Someone else can reply to your inane babblings, you are not worth any further effort on my part.


Jim Seth Brown - 9/1/2006

Are you kidding me I wrote almost a paragraph for each of your bogus points u made go look at it. WOW you are so ignorant. Go look at that post.


Philip Tuley - 8/30/2006

This should have shown up as a reply to your comment -

Yehudi,
You really don't read the entire posts you reply to, do you? Reread mine, and note that the last sentence with regards to Nasrallah was "This isn't an endorsement of his activities - as with Mark, this is an examination of the realities surrounding the situation, and it doesn't bode well for peace."

The simple truth is that, within Lebanon, and even within many of the other countries in the region, Nasrallah managed to take a situation that might have destroyed his influence, and, through prodigious amounts of money and the organization of rebuilding efforts, has managed to increase his influence.

That's what I mean by "not getting it." You're ascribing to me a political position I have not taken, assumed a pro-Nasrallah support that I do not exhibit, and, in general, have missed every point in your effort to condemn without critical consideration.

Frankly, Nasrallah's proven to be a willing killer of innocents. That makes him unsupportable in my book. Unfortunately, Israel's current administration has also proven to be willing to kill innocents far beyond the needs of war, and makes them unsupportable. Note that I said Israel's current administration, and not Israel in general. There's a big difference between supporting the idea of the existence of Israel, and supporting the idea of reckless warfare waged by a group currently leading the country.

I do not believe for a moment that the average Israeli likes the idea of children and women dying as a result of the actions of their leaders. If you think they do, you ascribe a position that says that Israelis support genocidal violence.

Are you willing to take that stance?


Philip Tuley - 8/30/2006

The last time you said that I posted an 18 point reply to your 18 points, at which point the best you could do was a lame sentence trying to denigrate my research.

You have yet to show that you have the ability to even remotely research anything, so with that, I'm done. I'm not running, I'm just sick of your idiocy.


Yehudi Amitz - 8/30/2006

Southern Lebanon has a solid Shiia population (Palestinians are Sunni). The initial reason for the foundation of Hezbollah was to throw out the armed Palestinians from South Lebanon during the 1980s.
Your hate isn't enough you should check your history!
Go get some education hateful boy!


Jim Seth Brown - 8/30/2006

Im the one running Tuley? You never answer my questions. You just run away from the truth.


Yehudi Amitz - 8/30/2006

There are no "former Palestinians" in Lebanon only Palestinians. Jordan is the only Arab country that transformed Palestinians into full Jordanian citizens.
I all other Arab countries Palestinians don't have any real rights, so stop telling bold lies.
I have nothing with the leftist position of Haaretz I only said that Iraelis don't read this newspaper.
As I told you before Yediot Aharonot is a centrist newspaper with a strong left leaning and Maariv is a centrist newspaper with a slight right leaning. These last two have the highest circulation in Israel, Yediot Aharonot the first and Maariv the second.
Of course you end with your Freudian slip wishing "the ultimate nuclear destruction of Israel" and trying to make me, the Jew, responsible for it, the very classic blame the Jew for everything!


john crocker - 8/30/2006

"one man's terrorism is another man's strike for good and vice versa"

Again, this was the point being made by Mr. Shcherban.

"Using your thinking, we were wrong when we retaliated against Japan for Pearl Harbor."
Absolutely incorrect. By my logic in our retaliation against Japan, when we used sneak attacks, they were sneak attacks.

My point here was that you inadvertantly conceded the bulk of Mr. Shcherban and Mr. Thomas' point and you did so again in your reply to me. Your argument lacks consistency.


Sukan Gurkaynak - 8/30/2006

This is good, I like it. So now I expect the explanations about the other jews: Genghis Khan, Hitler and Mao.


Philip Tuley - 8/30/2006

Yehudi,
You really don't read the entire posts you reply to, do you? Reread mine, and note that the last sentence with regards to Nasrallah was "This isn't an endorsement of his activities - as with Mark, this is an examination of the realities surrounding the situation, and it doesn't bode well for peace."

The simple truth is that, within Lebanon, and even within many of the other countries in the region, Nasrallah managed to take a situation that might have destroyed his influence, and, through prodigious amounts of money and the organization of rebuilding efforts, has managed to increase his influence.

That's what I mean by "not getting it." You're ascribing to me a political position I have not taken, assumed a pro-Nasrallah support that I do not exhibit, and, in general, have missed every point in your effort to condemn without critical consideration.

Frankly, Nasrallah's proven to be a willing killer of innocents. That makes him unsupportable in my book. Unfortunately, Israel's current administration has also proven to be willing to kill innocents far beyond the needs of war, and makes them unsupportable. Note that I said Israel's current administration, and not Israel in general. There's a big difference between supporting the idea of the existence of Israel, and supporting the idea of reckless warfare waged by a group currently leading the country.

I do not believe for a moment that the average Israeli likes the idea of children and women dying as a result of the actions of their leaders. If you think they do, you ascribe a position that says that Israelis support genocidal violence.

Are you willing to take that stance?


Philip Tuley - 8/30/2006

Ladies and gentlemen, I present for your enjoyment Mr. Jim Seth Brown. Mr. Brown's information, compendious as it is, is not derived from any primary sources. He will happily quote racist diatribes without concern that the rant is full of unsubstantiated lies. He will gleefully spout such gems of wisdom as "And dont give me that bigot crap because the arabs that want peace dont make their views known," and then refuse to acknowledge any information to the contrary, immediately attempting to change the subject to anything other than his inept attempts.

I leave him to your gentle mercies, he's not worth my time.


Jim Seth Brown - 8/29/2006

You see plenty of arab rallys for death to Jews and Americans, and get Israel off the map. But when have their been arab peace rallys. Name one and then talk to me.


Jim Seth Brown - 8/29/2006

They as in the arab world. And dont give me that bigot crap because the arabs that want peace dont make their views known.


Ricardo Luis Rodriguez - 8/29/2006

the world may decide, in the interests of peace, and "in recognition of the shifts in the balance of power in a developing multi-polar world, to take a metaphorical eraser and finally wipe the state of Israel off the map and, of course, seek first to negotiate, and then perhaps to impose a bi-national state, a homeland for two, or more, peoples in Palestine in which they may choose, through common political institutions, to work together for the good of all."

Funny you should mention that, because that is what was done after WWW2, when "a homeland for two, or more, peoples in Palestine in which they may choose, through common political institutions, to work together for the good of all was created" That fairy tale state exists to this day, and its called Israel. OH, and what about the "Palestinians" that lived there? Some stayed, and are still there. Others left in preparation for a full scale Arab invasion to destroy Israel at birth. And Yet others were given their very own state, much larger than Israel- TransJordan.

The trouble with your Utopian vision is that the Arabs in the region are absolutely, categorically, and fanatically opposed to any state in the region that is Jewish, or apparently, Democratic.


Frederick Thomas - 8/29/2006


Mr. Kovachev:

It was a massacre, one of many made possible because the Turks and Brits thoughtfully disarmed the people, while Jewish smugglers brought in tons of arms to be used against the people.

You will never admit, tho' you are too smart to have missed the point that Israel was founded upon ethnic cleansing and mass murder, and that its first three Prime Ministers were each a mass-murderer.

Ben Gurion's formula was that killing 10% or more forces the rest to flee. Sure enough, 100,000 were murdered, and 900,000 became refugees in places like South Lebanon, according to the toothless UN commission on refugees.

Pretty miserable way to start a country, isn't it? But the greater loss is that idealists like yourself are obliged to become shills for a bunch of murderers.

Give LeVine his due. He described the truth very accurately and well.


Frederick Thomas - 8/29/2006


I don't like HaSrretz because it is leftist. I like it because it does not assume that the people who were disposessed and murdered by your Irgunites in such horrible numbers are inhuman. Your boys are perfect racists.

Clearly, the whacky racists whom you support, and whom many of the Israeli public supports, will bring about the ultimate nuclear destruction of Israel. Is that what you want? The IDF cannot win against the poor former Palestinians of Southern Lebanon, backed by Iran and Syria.

So be it.


Carl Becker - 8/29/2006

I thought my statement was clear enough for you to understand the very minor point I was making about Hezbollah which cast no dispersions on Jews but only reflected on the record. You could have responded to those figures I cited or something else. Instead, your response was stupid and incoherent.

If this is due to your poor understanding of the English language, maybe you’re excused. But I notice most of your posts indicate a comprehension problem, or maybe some type of mental disability.


Frederick Thomas - 8/29/2006

I have never read such confused and unconvincing prose from one who is supposedly educated at least in history.

However, let me let a little air out of your balloon as regards Stalin. You seem to be saying that Stalin (Djugashvili) was not Jewish.

I do not blame you for not wanting to claim this monster, but he, like all but one member of the Politbureau (Bubov) when Stalin took power were also jews, although most, notably the mass murderer of the ten million Ukranians Lazar Apfelbaum (Kaganovich)changed their names to disguise their jewishness, out of shame, perhaps, because these jews were without talent, other than mass-murder.

You don't have to go any further than Stalin's real name to identify his ethnicity. In Georgian, "Djuga" means "Jew". "Shvili" means "son". Stalin's name in English was "Jewison." His first pseudonym was "Kochba" after the first century Jewish revolutionary, and each of his three wives were jewish, including Rosa Apfelbaum (Kaganovich) the sister of murderous Lazar.

Remember that the "Red" revolution was a leftist Jewish coup de etat which overthrew a "White" or democratic revolution which was Russian (and Christian) based.

Of course, these racist malcreants were atheistic, and Jews in name only. Among their first victims were often observant jews, whom they happily butchered along with the Christians.

Sorry if this disagrees with your packaged version, but it happens to be true. Do a little research and join with me in condemning these Godless scum.


Yehudi Amitz - 8/29/2006

Do you believe that french educated Christians will give up their freedoms and way of life to Nasrallah? Lebanon isn't a democracy but a political impotency and it should, probably, be federalized.
About your beloved Arab heroes, well, they have a very long history, from Saladin to Naser, they all went to dust and I don't believe Nasrallah is different. Moslems killed each other because of some cartoons in a Danish newspaper, another proof that they are heating up fast and cool down afterwards, don't mix your wishful thinking with reality!
If you want real explanations go to the site of Thomas P.M. Barnett, a political scientist:

http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/

You can begin with the map. His books are a very interesting reading.


Yehudi Amitz - 8/29/2006

Well done, pick and choose your "moral" rage! Sure, I killed Jesus and I am beyond redemption, no Jew can defend himself! To the ovens, dirty Jews!
By the way, do you believe that french educated Christians will give up their freedoms to Nasrallah? I guess in your wishful thinking a population that accepts killing Jews from within their borders deserves all the praise


Carl Becker - 8/29/2006

“Not enough Jews killed , that's amoral for you” Is this your main your main point, I’ll say what I previously said again, maybe a little clearer…based on the kill statistics of both sides, if Hezbollah were a military, given Western standards, it would certainly be the most moral in the world.

Israel has a long history of using extreme force against civilian populations. During "Operation Peace for Galilee," Israel slaughtered nearly 20,000 Lebanese and Palestinian civilians in Lebanon. Since the start of the second Intifada, Israeli forces killed more than 4,000 Palestinians, most of which were civilians. According to Tanya Reinhart in Israel/Palestine: How To End the War of 1948, "More than seven thousand Palestinians were reported injured in the first five weeks of the uprising, many in the head, legs, or knees by carefully aimed [Israeli] shots, and, increasingly, live [Israeli] ammunition." Since the capture of Israeli Corporal Gilad Shalit, Israeli forces have killed 188 Palestinians in Gaza, 44 of which were children. Israel used the capture of Shalit as a pretext to wage war on Gaza. Palestinian groups assert that the capture of Shalit was a response to the abduction of Dr. Osama Muantar and his brother, Mustafa.

Since the start of "Operation Summer Rain" in late June, Israel has pounded Gaza with thousands of artillery shells and air strikes. The United Nations humanitarian agencies working in Gaza reported that the Israeli military has "fired on average 200-250 artillery shells per day into the Gaza Strip and conducted at least 220 aerial bombings." The violence used against the civilian population and infrastructure is increasing, rather than abating, causing billions of dollars in damage. Several UN agencies and human rights groups warn that a disaster of catastrophic proportions is imminent if the status quo--the complete closure of Gaza and the population's inaccessibility to medicines, food and supplies--is not changed. The United Nations humanitarian agencies stated, "We are concerned that with international attention focusing on Lebanon, the tragedy in Gaza is being forgotten."


Philip Tuley - 8/29/2006

Define "they." And be careful, so far you've done a lousy job at defending any statement you've made. Too general a statement and you'll prove yourself uninformed. Too specific and you'll prove yourself to be a bigot.


Jim Seth Brown - 8/29/2006

They dont want peace so what does it matter.


Philip Tuley - 8/29/2006

You're really not getting the PR aspect, are you? At this point, according to a host of reports from Lebanon, the Christian opposition party has called for the government to resign. The upshot? They're in favor of Hezbollah's activities.

Nasrallah has become a hero throughout the area, as has Hezbollah. Anything Israel does militarily might kill off the leadership, but the groundswell of support will continue to grow. Nasrallah figured out how to take a disaster and turn it to his advantage.

This isn't an endorsement of his activities - as with Mark, this is an examination of the realities surrounding the situation, and it doesn't bode well for peace.


Yehudi Amitz - 8/28/2006

Before July, 12 2006 the social contract of the rest of Lebanon with Hezbollah was: as long as you kill Jews and leave us to do our business it's OK with us. Israel changed this contract and now all Lebanon and its government is responsible for attacks against Israel. Israel wasn't at it's best in this war but one thing is now clear, the Lebanese government can't hide behind Hezbollah anymore and that's a point in Israel's favor.
About the so called "victory" of Hezbollah and the PR campaign, let see about it in 6 months or so.


Philip Tuley - 8/28/2006

The "LeVine guy" actually was pointing out a fact regarding the political fallout from the war - Hezbollah has managed to increase its standing in Lebanon, which is exactly the opposite of what Israel had been hoping for. Further, the question LeVine posed was how far into the war had they gone before Nasrallah realized the potential for making a public relations triumph by providing for rebuilding those whose homes and lives were destroyed.

And, as I pointed out, you missed his point.


Yehudi Amitz - 8/28/2006

This LeVine guy is trumpeting the "great victory" of Hezbollah and hopes for the demise of Israel, so I don't keep my fingers crossed.
The question is why some people are "open minded" when Jews defend themselves and don't really give a fecal about what the Russians did in Chechnya, what Turkey, did in Cyprus, about the genocide in Ruanda and much more. These people are anti-Jewish, because it doesn't seem that they act on a moral principle.
What looked strange to me is that the only thing the responder to my post didn't understand was about the calls for the extermination of the Jews in Israel.


Yehudi Amitz - 8/28/2006

sorry typo


Yehudi Amitz - 8/28/2006

Don't even consider the fact that Hezbollah has its rocket launchers inside high density populated areas.


Philip Tuley - 8/28/2006

That, I fear (the "you didn't seem to give any thought about the meaning of what I wrote) statement applies to a great many in this discussion.

The vast majority, instead of actually reading what Mark LeVine has said, go into ideological attacks based on their political and religious beliefs without taking the time to actually think about the meaning of his posts. Just go back and look at "Peace Ship" for a review on how one idea - a non-partisan humanitarian effort, can be cast by one group as a support of Hezbollah, and by another as an apology for Israel.

Until you all open your ears and try to really communicate, these discussions are merely another blind exchange of unpleasantries.


Carl Becker - 8/28/2006

"What it didn't count on was that Hezbollah was using the same principle of violence as the instigator of social and political change, only in reverse:"

Don't think so.

Hezbollah killed 118 Israeli soldiers and 41 Israeli civilians (18 of which were Israeli Palestinians). Hezbollah killed three Israeli soldiers for every one Israeli civilian. In contrast, Israeli forces killed more than 1000 Lebanese civilians during the onslaught (more bodies are expected to be discovered during the current period of "calm"). Robert Fisk, based in Lebanon, reported, "They are digging them [Lebanese bodies] up by the hour." Israeli forces killed 25 Lebanese civilians for every Israeli civilian killed by Hezbollah.

So, by Western stands , this makes them the most moral army in the world.


Sukan Gurkaynak - 8/28/2006

US policies in 1945 gave Europe and Japan a future. Without the Marshall plan Europe after 1945 would have suffered the fate of Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal. Had the West supported Afghanistan at that point, there would have been no Taliban and no 9-11. The European Union has been giving her poorer members Irland, Portugal, Spain, Greece and now Eastern Europe a future. For the Arab world it would be enough to invest the ca. 500 bn $ annual oil revenue of the Arab world in the Arab world instead of in Europe and USA. The sheikhs might like investing what is not their money in the USA, the Arab people see this as theft by the US. Nowadays even Mr. Kaddafi is seen as doing whatever the US tells him.


Yehudi Amitz - 8/27/2006

Next time make some effort and you'll not be suspected!


E. Simon - 8/27/2006

Rational people respond to reasonable incentives as well as rational horses.

It's an idiom, by the way - not to be taken literally.

Which country's (or organization's) policies do you point to as a _good example_ for "offer(ing)" or "giving" others "a future"? Or else make up your mind and stick with how you think governments in the Middle East do or do not, should or should not, live up to what they "expect (of) their governments".


john crocker - 8/27/2006

So you accuse me of finding food for my soul in a madman's desire for the destruction of your race?
How easily you see hate in anyone with whom you disagree. Must every opposing view be seen as evidence of genocidal hatred? If you can see no difference in what I write and the views of Ahmedinejad that has quite a lot to do with your mindset.

Do you see any reason the scenario I put forward is really unlikely?
Why not argue that point rather than just calling me a bigot.
If you have an argument I would like to hear it.




Vernon Clayson - 8/27/2006

Mr. Crocker, and you believe that Israel should have turned the other cheek? I concede nothing to Shcherban, one man's terrorism is another man's strike for good and vice versa, brother fighting brother to the grave. Using your thinking, we were wrong when we retaliated against Japan for Pearl Harbor.


Yehudi Amitz - 8/27/2006

""Or, maybe, you believe that calls for the destruction of the Jewish people can replace the food on their plates (and maybe yours)?"
What on earth do you mean by this?"
English isn't my mother tongue, so my phrase could be cumbersome but I believe that it has quite a lot to do with your mind set.
What I meant is: Ahmedinejad calls for the extermination of Jews in Israel is meant as soul food for Iranians replacing the real food they don't have on their plates.


Peter Kovachev - 8/27/2006

"And how does Kovachev's community suggest we determine who exactly those educated, normal, and otherwise nice people that believe in stupidities
nowadays: them or the rest of the
world? (Arnold Schcherban)

First of all, what community do you think I'm part of, Arnold? So, who is "them" and who is "the rest of the world"?

"Aren't social and international issues supposed to be resolved at the majority, not minority approval, i.e democratically, as we are taught by pundits of peace and democracy and politicians?" (Ibid.)

Simply, no. Social issues are and always have been determined by the societies themselves and international issues are determined by nations...as the word "inter-national" suggests. Since the majority of the nations are not democracies, international issues are usually determined by governing elites. You seem to misunderstand what "democratic" means. In all cases where democracy has been established, it pertains to a law-based system of representational governments. Advanced liberal democracies protect the right of the individual and minorities through laws based on constitutions, bills of rights or legal precedent. You confuse democracy with tyranny of the mob. In practical terms this means, for example, that in a liberal democracy no matter how many people want to take your property, the principles of private ownership and individual rights insist that this cannot take place without involving the legal system and its official enforcers.

"Further, the examples given are all the examples of beliefs or opinions based not on scientific or even honest application of common sense investigations, but on prejudices and
religious myths, exactly the things, which science, the modern Western civilization is based on (somehow, except politics and sociology) reject categorically." (Ibid.)

Nonsense. The examples I gave were the results of what the majority believed was scientific and commonsensical. On the other side of the coin, modern secular societies and their ideologies and assumptions have yet to show that they are anymore "scientific" than traditional societies. Science is impossible without facts, and if whatever reason we can't agree on what the facts are, a scientific approach is impossible. Modern Western civilization applies science or scientific thought (i.e., a method of inquiry) successfully in many, but not all areas. Science cannot contribute much to issues involving human cultural values and preferences, since science is by its very nature limited to the arena of the tangible. As for politics and sociology, these can be sciences, if we limit the definition to a policy of using scientific methods whenever possible.

"There is only one way for a human being, if any, to avoid acquiring erroneous opinions falling into the darkness of dogmatic ideological beliefs (including any religion): scientific and logical approach, i.e. UNIFORMLY applied premises, tangible evidence, pertaining to the issue in question, followed by strict logical analysis, which leads to ACTUAL (in difference with ABSOLUTE) truth." (Ibid.)

You cannot have thought much about any of this. On one hand, you proclaim a rule of majority opinion, with imaginary players such as "the rest of the world," on the other, a uniformly applied "scientific and logical" approach. I note the absence of ethics and morality in your formula, an "oversight" which is not entirely coincidental.

So, all you have done here is to propose an insane world where the majority somehow determines what reality is, while someone somewhere applies what someone thinks are strict rules of logic and science, somehow in perfect harmony with a majority that may not be so inclined. Taken to its logical ends, your global social engineering approach is at best a comic idiocy and at worst, a nightmare world of deadly late-mediaeval populist tyrannies somehow coexisting with Nazi-like measures of "scientifically" imposed truths.

"If Kovachev's brotherhood does not
understand and apply this <profound wisdom> then it is <brother-in-arms> with those religious and non-religious fanatics that kill civilians and... apes." (Ibid.)

I didn't need further evidence of your inability to reason and make much sense, but thanks for the reminder in your parting shot.


Arnold Shcherban - 8/26/2006

And how does Kovachev's community
suggest we determine who exactly those
educated, normal, and otherwise nice people that believe in stupidities
nowadays: them or the rest of the
world?
Aren't social and international issues
supposed to be resolved at the majority, not minority approval, i.e democratically, as we are taught by
pundits of peace and democracy and politicians?

Further, the examples given are all the examples of beliefs or opinions based not on scientific or even honest application of common sense investigations, but on prejudices and
religious myths, exactly the things, which science, the modern Western civilization is based on (somehow, except politics and sociology) reject categorically.
There is only one way for a human being, if any, to avoid acquiring erroneous opinions falling into the darkness of dogmatic ideological beliefs (including any religion): scientific and logical approach, i.e. UNIFORMLY applied premises, tangible evidence, pertaining to the issue in question, followed by strict logical analysis, which leads to ACTUAL (in difference with ABSOLUTE) truth.

If Kovachev's brotherhood does not
understand and apply this <profound wisdom> then it is <brother-in-arms> with those religious and non-religious fanatics that kill civilians and... apes.


Sukan Gurkaynak - 8/26/2006

No wonder US policies don't work. They think they are dealing with horses.


E. Simon - 8/26/2006

"In the Middle East people expect their governments (for Iraq the US government since 2003) to offer them a future, which should not be so difficult given the oil wealth."

Kind of hard to ensure that without any form of accountability, especially in an authoritarian society. Also, the Iraqi government has been sovereign for a few years now, 'case it slipped your notice.


"OBL wants victory in war, to defeat him, show the people that they have a future without war."

You can lead 300 million horses to water, but you can't make them all drink. Fortunately some are further ahead on the 8 ball than others.


Peter Kovachev - 8/25/2006

No one denies that civilians were killed at Deir Yassin, Mr. LeVine. As a scholar you should know to make that distinction. The dispute is over whether it was a massacre...by which we usually mean intentional murder of a large number of defenseless people...or a case of poorly trained and desperate irregulars in a hot and costly battle against a force of militants hiding among villagers.

As for your "innumerable terrorist acts large and small committed by irregular Jewish forces in the 1940s," enumeration would, actually, be welcomed. Such would show that true acts of terrorism by Jewish irregulars were fairly rare, hotly argued about and that they pale in comparison to the frequency, intensity and popularity among Muslims of Arab terror against Jews. The latter did not involve just irregulars, but often entire villages and clans, where men, women and children joined-in on the "fun" of robbing, raping, torchuring, killing and finally dismembering Jews.

We're impressed by your travels and being able to rattle-off obscure names of localities, but when it's only to present a piece of evidence like a wall graffiti you once saw, your effort is somewhat comical. Your attempt to establish parity between actions of the Arabs and Jews in British Palestine and a moral equivalency between them and to move along to your obscure "implications" is what constitutes true and serious denial. That's fine for political advocacy and propaganda, but under the halo of academia it acquires a fetid stench.


Peter Kovachev - 8/25/2006

What profound wisdom are you trying to share here with us, Mr. Schcherban? That history can be determined through an international opinion poll? That personal or political bias cannot determine reporting or historiography? That ethics can be voted on?

Not too many generations ago your countrymen (and most of the non-African world) and whatever went for a media in those days, believed that Blacks were humanoid simians incapable of intelligent action and undeserving of freedom. Further back, but not really that far back, some of the best minds of Europe finally agreed with the vast majority of their countrymen and decided that witches not only believe that they can fly, but that they actually can and do fly. It took many theses, international conventions and official decrees to establish that important "fact." In both cases the believers believed that they were intelligent, truthful and moral human beings.

Yes, people, even educated, normal and otherwise nice people can and do believe in stupidities. In that respect and in more ways than you think, you and Mr. Thomas are brothers-in-arms.


Arnold Shcherban - 8/25/2006

Lies and distortion are your main tools of debate, aren't they, Mr. Keuter?

Besides, of substituting even tangential arguments with statements of faith, you're a LIER and the FACT
provided below PROVES it undeniably.

Where did I say that I'm apologet (or
apologist) of the crimes of the Soviet regime?
<I'm far from being an apologet>
Is that saying that I'm apologet/apologist?

Now you can tell whatever you want to... it won't change the conclusion,
matching mine, every honest person will make of your "style" of debate.


Arnold Shcherban - 8/25/2006

Hurry to see, everyone!
Mr. Thomas - anti-semite v. Mr. Kovachev - zealot of Zionist atrocities.


Arnold Shcherban - 8/25/2006

Do you believe in global conspiracy theories, like, say, the planned by Jews world hegemony?

If yes, then you also have to believe
that the overwhelming international
majority, including many Jewish and
non-Jewish historians and mass media organizations conspire to lie about any Israel terror act.
Therefore, there were none of those, period.

Terrific analytical work!


john crocker - 8/25/2006

First, If you had read to the end of my post you would see that it is a scenario that I do not want to come to pass, rather it is a scenario I fear may come to pass.

"Iran is a very poor country with a lot of poor people..."
Iran is ranked 31 in the world for GDP Irael is ranked 41 (though Israel does much better per capita). Iran is a relatively wealthy country and with oil prices remaining over $70/barrel it is not likely to become poor anytime soon. There is rampant inequality in Iran and there are many poor people. Iran could and should do far better for its own populace economically and otherwise. It does however have more than enough money to rebuild the destruction caused by the recent conflict in Lebanon.

"Do you believe that spending money in Lebanon will help reaching his political goal and promise?"
One of his political goals is to increase Iran's power and influence in the region. Another is to make the US and Israel look bad and ineffectual. Spending money rebuilding in Lebanon could help with both of these political goals.

"Or, maybe, you believe that calls for the destruction of the Jewish people can replace the food on their plates (and maybe yours)?"
What on earth do you mean by this?

Again to reiterate, this is a scenario that I fear will come to pass, not one I hope will come to pass. Please take off your blinders long enough to recognize that not every opinion that differs from yours does so out of hatred for the Jews or any other ethnicity or religion.


Yehudi Amitz - 8/25/2006

What about the roads and bridges? Iran is a very poor country with a lot of poor people and Ahmedinejad was elected (kind of elected) because he promised to solve the poverty problem in Iran. Do you believe that spending money in Lebanon will help reaching his political goal and promise?
Or, maybe, you believe that calls for the destruction of the Jewish people can replace the food on their plates (and maybe yours)?


Sukan Gurkaynak - 8/25/2006

This is a wonderful formulation of American individualist philosophy, which of course is not the only approach to social problems. In the Middle East people expect their governments (for Iraq the US government since 2003) to offer them a future, which should not be so difficult given the oil wealth. OBL wants victory in war, to defeat him, show the people that they have a future without war.


john crocker - 8/25/2006

"Hezb Allah gets its money from Iran. Of course they have enough, combined with local funds. That's $12,000 per family times about 10,000 homeless families, only $120 million-chump change for a big oil exporter."

If Hezb Allah and Iran are smart they will rebuild all of the destruction caused by the recent war and provide for the families who lost family members. This is small change for Iran and the gain for them in the region would be large. Additionally it would give them a chance to show up the US reconstruction effort in Iraq. The two situations are not really comparable, but that matters little in a PR campaign. Such a move might even allow them to revitalize Hezb Allah al Iraq, this time as an ally.

I hope that this does not come to pass and that the US and Israel through the UN will play a signifigant role in the rebuilding if for no other reason than to avert another PR disaster.


john crocker - 8/25/2006

"From my view the Israelis were fighting fire with fire while you seem to believe they were unprovoked."
So by your interpretation the Israelis were fighting terrorism with terrorism. You have here effectively conceded to him the point he was making.


Mark A. LeVine (UC Irvine History Professor) - 8/25/2006

just wanted to add something to this debate thread. it is ludicrous to deny that deir yassin occurred. the record is too strong. moreover, it was only one of innumerable terrorist acts large and small committed by irregular jewish forces in the 1940s. in the jabotinsky archive on king george street in tel aviv (about 2 blocks from dizengoff center) there is a book (in hebrew) written by former members of either or both the IZL and Lehi, the two main "radical" groups of the period. in it former members discuss openly their tactics and exploits, including planting bombs in cucumbers in arab markets and other acts that cannot be described as anything but terrorism. there is other evidence, such as the quote on the wall of the etzel museum in manshiyyeh, built into the ruins of an old palestinian house near the sea, which says to 'show no mercy' to the enemy in jaffa, etc etc etc. it's really not worth trying to deny this anymore. better to spend your time understanding the implications of the actions of these groups (which included the haganah when it felt it strategically important enough not to leave the dirty work to the other groups).


Mark A. LeVine (UC Irvine History Professor) - 8/25/2006

what's a 'fairly obvious latent wish'? isn't that an oxymoron. as for who's rudolph, yes, he's the long lost brother who actually invented the term. joseph stole it and then had rudolph committed so no one would know otherwise... didn't you all know that :-)?


Jason Blake Keuter - 8/25/2006

The "resistance" to the march of histroy doesn't come from the "bourgeois" or any other "ruling" class. It is ultimately the people who are unwilling to play the role assigned them as engines of historical evolution, and it is ultimately the people who are deemed to be historically obsolescent and treated accordingly. The "capitalists" are murdered quickly. Then everyone is enslaved and those who give the slightest inkling of not liking it run the risk of being labelled "Kulaks" or "spies" and join the ranks of the disappeared. That is the PRAVDA.

Hence, it is consigning the "proletariat" to the role of an agent of historical change and calling their exercise of personal liberty to choose a different role for themselves an enslaving false consciousness that perpetuates a "bourgeois democracy" that is an impediment to a good world that makes Marxism an inherently destructive and morally repulsive abomination to anyone who seriously believes in human liberty and the innate dignity of man.


Jason Blake Keuter - 8/25/2006

I would say Levine is expressing a fairly obvious latent wish for the destruction of what he believes is the corporate world order and foolishly attributes enlightened humanistic intentions to completely deranged and retrograde contemporary actors. His comments on "confounding" the US and Israel reek of a twisted triumphalism that he doesn't have the gumption to say more overtly.


Jason Blake Keuter - 8/25/2006

We will know that we have finally come to grips with the actual history of the twentieth century when the epithet "anti-commmunist" raises as many eyebrows as the epithet" anti-Nazi". Anti-communist and blather are mutually exclusive terms.


Jason Blake Keuter - 8/25/2006

Perhaps, but Trotsky is inevitably brought out to resuce the creed from its consequences. If only Trotsky had taken power......

It's murdered millions but we can make it work...it's murdered millions but we can make it work.....


Jason Blake Keuter - 8/25/2006

I think you mean anti-cultist blather.


Jason Blake Keuter - 8/25/2006

everything you said prior to saying you are an apologist is a rationalization for maintaining your faith in a creed that has proven itself to be inherently destructive.


Arnold Shcherban - 8/24/2006

Mr Thomas,

1st point: before labeling people (e.g. Gulag Denier) you should know them much better than you know me and about me. Plus, if you don't want to appear biased or foolish, before responding to someone's comments you better carefully read what exactly
your opponent said in the regard you are about to comment on.

2nd point: R.J. Rommel if he/she is
either reprinted, without checking, that figure from some other inaccurate
or politically biased source, or, if not, made a moronic, since unreal, evaluation (notice I don't call him personally a moron) in this particular (and, perhaps, in some other) case, or just, as I already mentioned in my responce to your comments, presented that 61M figure
to knock out his/her reader, the sin
commited by many a historians.
I challenged anyone, including you
Mr. Thomas and Mr. R.J.Rommel, to
confirm the figure even close to 60M allegedly killed by Stalin's or Soviet communist regime altogether
for the 70 years in power, as you and some other claimed through serious, not anecdotal, evidence or/and through
logical analysis based on respective demographical and medical data.
I bet you any bucks noone will be able to do it. (Disclosure: I've been through that namy times).

3rd point: <Stalin bragged openly to Churchill and others about the 10 million Ukranians he killed, and that was only one month's work.>
Where did you take this "fact" from?
Again, if you consider yourself a man with even average mental capacity, don't you see that the deed, even provided Stalin did bragg about it, was impossible to accomplish,
just in practical terms?
The entire Germany lost 11M in WWII
for 6 years. And Stalin killed 10M Ukranians in a course of a month?
Are you sane or just pretend to be,
Mr. Thomas, believing in such an
obvious crap?

4th point: Are you anti-semite Mr. Thomas? From your last comments in regard to Jewish Bund and Stalin (that non-coincidentally have nothing to do with the Jewish Bund issue you and me started our debate with it is pretty much clear that you are.
And Stalin was not a Jew, in case that's what you have implied by falsely asribing him to Jewish Bund and indicating his real name.
I don't think this has much to do with the major issue of our debate (unless you consider it to be "Jewish
Problem" the majority of <former members of this organization> HAS NOT <survived pretty well>, but perished
in Stalin's repressions, as well, as
many other prominent and common Soviet Jews. Trotsky did not become a victim of Lenin's <murdering>, he was
murdered in Argentine, 15 years after Lenin's death, on Stalin's order.
--------------------------------------
Thus, you're showed yourself not only as misinformed and logically retarded, but aslo, as a falsificator,
and anti-semite or, at the least, making successful attempts to be recognized as one.






Yehudi Amitz - 8/24/2006

http://www.ynetnews.com


Yehudi Amitz - 8/24/2006

I read all the Israeli newspapers. You like Haaretz because it's leftist. There are other newspapers in Israel the centrist Yediot Aharonot (ynet.co.il) and the one with the highest number of readers, Maariv (maariv.co.il) is to the right but with more readers than Haaretz. I believe the last two have a web edition in English too.
Haaretz is a propaganda piece as much as Jerusalem Post.
The article I tried to link to is written by an American,
EDWARD N.LUTTWAK, who is a well known authority on strategic affairs, but I believe you are one of these guys who considers everything that doesn't criticize Israel as propaganda.
If you want the real feel of the Israeli public opinion the address is Yediot Aharonot.


Peter Kovachev - 8/24/2006

Better watch my back, Mr. Thomas? You have a funny thing going for my back or is that a threat by a psychopathic old poltroon I need to have looked into?


Frederick Thomas - 8/24/2006


Mr. Kovachev:

How pathetic and sad that when there is no argument to be made in favor of an Israeli policy of war crimes against civilians, a policy decried by half the Israeli press and the entire rest of the world, you pathetically pull out that most tired of Zionist ploys, and name call like a stupid child.

Give it a rest, Zio-boy. That ploy was old and dead 50 years ago, and using it makes you sound like even more of a yeshiva dropout than you probably are.

On the other hand, it always makes you feel soooo.. good, since you did exactly as you were told! Of course, supporting this policy makes you complicit. Better watch your back.


Frederick Thomas - 8/24/2006


..or its second string OP-ED contributors.

Hezb Allah gets its money from Iran. Of course they have enough, combined with local funds. That's $12,000 per family times about 10,000 homeless families, only $120 million-chump change for a big oil exporter.

They also have plenty more money for various missiles, one of which at some point will have a nuke on it. Think about it.

Will Hezb Allah attack again? Of course. Volunteers are pouring in because of Israel's self defeating policies, but they will wisely wait until Israel's next series of atrocities, and afterward HA will have two victories, not one. You are whistling in the dark, bubba. The whole paradigm has changed.

Read Ha'Arretz. JPost is a propaganda piece, and no wise man believes his own propaganda.


Frederick Thomas - 8/24/2006

Mr. Shcherban:

My source for the 61 million Russians murdered by the Soviets is R.J. Rummel, "Death by Government," 1994.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

However, one need not go there for the data. Stalin bragged openly to Churchill and others about the 10 million Ukranians he killed, and that was only one month's work. He and the rest were real terrorists, you see, not candy-assed terrorists like Hamas.

Stalin and his fellow former Jewish Bund members were proud of their bloody accomplishments. It is clear that you wish to whitewash these criminals which unfortunately makes you about as bad as they were.

Re Elitism: The ultimate elitism is a Politbureau of 10 ethnic thugs living with all of the best which life has to offer while the people starve or are killed in Gulag camps. You simply cannot get more elitist than that, and that was Lenin's essential concept.

Proletariat? That was just millions of future corpses to the politbureau, which cared nothing for them, obviously.

Re: Jewish Bund. I believe that former members of this organization, including Yosip Djugashvili (Stalin), survived pretty well for a group on the outs. Perhaps you should check your history. Trotsky favored a broader based party. Lenin did not. It got in the way of his murdering, you see, of which Trotsky became a victim himself.


Peter Kovachev - 8/23/2006

Shame on you Patrick. After giving me hell for making light of pot smoking, you accuse others of being stoned.

Your Deir Yassin example, aptly called a "Man Bites Dog" story by Gunther Plaut, is another silliness you should be ashamed of. An old spin even the Arabs can't agree on:

"...Dr. Hussein Khalidi is at the center of a startling new report, in which several Arab eyewitnesses to the Deir Yassin battle admitted that some of their original claims about Jewish atrocities were fabricated. The latest issue of the Jerusalem Report (April 2, 1998) reveals that in a forthcoming BBC television program, Hazem Nusseibeh, an editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service's Arabic news in 1948, admits that he was told by Hussein Khalidi to fabricate claims of atrocities at Deir Yassin in order to encourage Arab regimes to invade the Jewish state-to-be.
According to the Jerusalem Report, Nusseibeh "describes an encounter at the Jaffa Gate of Jerusalem's Old City with Deir Yassin survivors and Palestinian leaders, including Hussein Khalidi ... 'I asked Dr. Khalidi how we should cover the story,' recalled Nusseibeh. 'He said, "We must make the most of this." So we wrote a press release stating that at Deir Yassin children were murdered, pregnant women were raped. All sorts of atrocities.'"
The BBC program then shows a recent interview with Abu Mahmud, who was a Deir Yassin resident in 1948, who says that the villagers protested against the atrocity claims "'We said, "There was no rape." [Khalidi] said, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews.'"
Nusseibeh, who is a member of one of Jerusalem's most prominent Arab families and presently lives in Amman, told the BBC that the fabricated atrocity stories about Deir Yassin were "our biggest mistake," because "Palestinians fled in terror" and left the country in huge numbers after hearing the atrocity claims...."

(From: "Deir Yassin - Arab Study Shows there was no Massacre" http://arabterrorism.tripod.com/FAQ/yassin2.html)

The Deir Yassin story was and still is used to cover-up a real massacre which took place shortly after, that of the Hadassah Hospital caravan of 78 unarmed Jewish doctors and nurses. They were not killed in the heat of battle, but were deliberately and systematically slaughtered and dismembered (the photos of body parts strewn all over the Jerusalem highway are not pretty) by Arab "freedom-fighters."


Yehudi Amitz - 8/23/2006

Mr Brown,
I am sorry but that's the reality, this site prefers low life spin masters like this LeVine guy and any true facts about Jewish suffering isn't a subject here.


Jim Seth Brown - 8/23/2006

For anyone that would like know the truth sorrounding everything in the middle east, you should go to this web site and see the film.
http://www.theforgottenrefugees.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&;Itemid=1


Peter Kovachev - 8/23/2006

Summary: "Sure, they got their faces bashed to pulp, but they got the sympathy, rhinoplasty and the nice dentures they wanted all along."

Looks like Mark's "ship of fools" ("Peace Boat") project isn't about to happen, what with lack of interest and the semester starting in a few weeks. Pity, jaded Israeli gunboat crews could have used the diversion of a moving target.

So, with lecture notes to compile and a few end-of-summer bar gigs to drum-up, why sweat over lengthy articles? Much cheaper to indulge in the fine old Arab tradition of turning every defeat into a clever victory. A few staged photo-ops of Hizbollah goons handing Iranian cash and Ikea futons to their wives, concubines, catamites or whatever is all you need for this trick. Cheap and cheesy, but at least it worked on Mr. Thomas, who has shown us than when paleoconservative antisemites need to orgasm over their dream of a Juden-frei world, even leftie comedians and Ha'aretz will do.


Vernon Clayson - 8/23/2006

Mr. Shcherban, you are obviously serious but your bias is similarly obvious. From my view the Israelis were fighting fire with fire while you seem to believe they were unprovoked. Their enemies should take notice hey have decided not to be the meek Jews of the holocaust.
Actually, I think it is all silly, all this over each other's various interpretations of the God of Abraham,faith against faith, death to unbelievers of their brand of worship, factions within factions, brother fighting brother to the grave. And then there's the pretenders, pretending to understand the complexities by keeping score of the craziness. (I had to fit you in there somewhere.)


Jim Seth Brown - 8/23/2006

Name these so called acts of terror Israel has commited. O wait ill save you the trouble their arent any.


Arnold Shcherban - 8/23/2006

Addition I:

The main point of BUND's dissent and split with Lenin's course towards united party of proletariat was its nationalism versus ideological internationalism of marxism.


Arnold Shcherban - 8/23/2006

Oh, surely they, too.
You don't want me to list out all
nations, do you?


Arnold Shcherban - 8/23/2006

First of all, Mr Thomas, stop
using the figures (such as 61 millions of their own people allegedly killed by Soviets)
neither you nor
the ones who first perpetrated them in subsitution of careful research
don't know squat about.
It is not to say that Stalin's regime has not killed millions, and has not been one of the most murderous regimes in human history, but even an
elementary evaluation would tell any
educated person that the figures beeing tossed around on that issue: from 40 to 60 millions are far from real and constitute nothing but the ideological sensationalism.

<...vicious thugs went Lenin's elitist route>.

While <vicious thugs> is also highly debatable, calling Lenin's <route> elitist is completely untrue.
One cannot call an <elitist> anything
that was later supported by the majority of nation's populus, as Bolsheviks' social and political course(route?) would, beginning from
the the second part of 1917, the
course the Civil War and war against agression from abroad was won along,
unless the one claims that those wars
were won not by the populus majority (deceived or not), but by Bolshevik
party who those times consisted of
about 50 thousands members against
1000-fold majority.

By the way if you really think that those <vicious thugs> maintain its power for 70 years against all odds (such as being practically alone in the adversarial sea of capitalist countries, without much of a trade with the world, and came victorious from terrible German invasion) against the majority
in the Soviet Union, you must be completely out of touch with social and human realities.



E. Simon - 8/23/2006

The difference is that you can't accuse them of terrorizing countries or groups that have given up their eliminationist land claims on them. Pretty complicated, huh?


E. Simon - 8/23/2006

You honestly believe that futures are "given" to others, rather than determined by and for oneself?

I think the best example available for "others" to emulate is Western civilization, but indigenous imperatives such as shahada and jihad take precedent, and as shown by UBL, Mo Atta, the recent U.K. plotters and the rest, lack of money had nothing to do with the prioritization of those imperatives.

If you want to perceive a Western model of social grievances in determining the causation of problems in non-Western societies, then you might as well acknowlege that the Western answer to poverty is capitalism, and capitalism is not possible where corruption, anarchy theocratic eliminationist demogoguery and street justice are the law of the land. The kind of Western-style governments that are strong enough to quash those problems require dramatic cultural shifts in order to be adopted by the societies in question however, as you seem to understand, which gets us back to the original gap in your argument.


Frederick Thomas - 8/23/2006


"Terrorists are terrorists whether they are American nationals or Suadi Arabian nationals or Palestinians:
".

What about the Israeli terrorists, who have been busy mass-killing civilians since 1947? What about Ben Gurion, who designed the murder program? What about Begin, who bombed the King David Hotel and much else?

What about Shamir, who killed every villager but two, in the village of Qiryat Arba in 1947? What about the 110,000 murders documented by the UN Refugees commissions which led to the expulsion of 900,000 Palestinians by 1948, whose grandchildren have now become the Hizb Allah rank and file?

What is the difference between these god-forsaken criminals whose bloddy hands formed Israel and the present government policy of Israel?

If you can find any difference, I cannot.




Frederick Thomas - 8/23/2006

.
As miraculous as the parting of the Red Sea, Mr. LeVine has (again!) created an article which is wonderfully analytical and useful.

He has the winning Hizb Allah strategy down pat, and correctly identifies it as much more intelligent and thus more successful, politically and militarily, than Israel's exercise in public brutality.

Together with HaAretz, he correctly analyses the genesis of the Israeli military defeat and casts appropriate doubts upon Israel's losing strategy today and into the future.

This kind of writing makes HNN worth attending. It's hard to believe this is the same LeVine who has come forth with some of his other articles. Is this a doppelganger, or has the Almighty intervened? Regardless, when the topic is the middle east he now seems almost infallible.

I hope that someone over there listens to him.


Frederick Thomas - 8/23/2006

It looks as if the two factions were split on the questions of party elitism vs mass-movement, just the sort of thing one would expect a coffee-house elitists such as the "Jewish Bund" to argue about.

It seems that these vicious thugs went Lenin's elitist route, and successfully overthrew a democratic revolution with a coup, replacing it with the worst gang of murderers the world has ever seen, killing some 61 million people over 70 years, or 900,000 per annum.

Quote (Wikipedia):

Split with Lenin (1903-1904)

In the meantime, after a period of secret police repression and internal confusion that followed the first party Congress in 1898, Iskra succeeded in convening the party's 2nd congress in London in August 1903, with Trotsky and other Iskra editors in attendance. At first the Congress went as planned, with Iskra supporters handily defeating the few "economist" delegates at the Congress. Then the Congress discussed the position of the Jewish Bund, which had co-founded the RSDLP in 1898 but wanted to remain autonomous within the Party. In the heat of the debate, Trotsky made a controversial statement to the effect that he and eleven other non-Bund Jewish delegates who had signed an anti-Bund statement

while working in the Russian party, regarded and still do regard themselves also as representatives of the Jewish proletariat.
As Trotsky explained two months later, his statement was just a tactical maneuver made on Lenin's request. [5]

Shortly thereafter, pro-Iskra delegates unexpectedly split in two factions. Lenin and his supporters (known as "Bolsheviks") argued for a smaller but highly organized party. Martov and his supporters (known as "Mensheviks") argued for a larger and less disciplined party. In a surprise development, Trotsky and most of the Iskra editors supported Martov and the Mensheviks while Plekhanov supported Lenin and the Bolsheviks.

The two factions were in a state of flux in 1903-1904 with many members changing sides. Plekhanov soon parted ways with the Bolsheviks. Trotsky left the Mensheviks in September 1904 over their insistence on an alliance with Russian liberals and their opposition to a reconciliation with Lenin and the Bolsheviks. From that point until 1917 he remained a self-described "non-factional social democrat".

Trotsky spent much of his time between 1904 and 1917 trying to reconcile different groups within the party, which resulted in many clashes with Lenin and other prominent party members. Trotsky later conceded he had been wrong in opposing Lenin on the issue of the party. During these years Trotsky began developing his theory of permanent revolution, which led to a close working relationship with Alexander Parvus in 1904-1907.

Unquote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky


Sukan Gurkaynak - 8/23/2006

What I am saying is that unless a way is found of giving the Palestinians and Iraqis a future there will be no end of this bloodshed. Bombing them until they surrender is not an option.


Arnold Shcherban - 8/22/2006

You Mr. Clayson are exercising an anecdotal style of debate of the type that was employed by your archi-enemies - Soviets. When asked why there were so small number of passenger cars on the streets of their cities they would reply:
in your country white racists beat blacks.
As soon as commentators on these boards start to talk about American imperialism, which unceremoniously have interfered and continue to interfere (often with lethal consequences for lifes of hundreds of thousands of foreign nationals, not mentioning their property) into internal affairs of countries around the world, you respond in the sense:
but what about those terrorists that
bomb Jews, etc.
Terrorists are terrorists whether they are American nationals or Suadi Arabian nationals or Palestinians:
they do kill civilains and military.
Nobody contradicts that fact.
But there is one big 'but' about US treatment of different terrorists. When Afghanistan's mudjaheedins (who
the CIA and USG knew very well were
criminals and terrorists) kill
Russians they were freedom fighters
for the US, but as soon as the same
mudjahhedins started to kill Americans
they overnight turned out to be monsters, murderers, destroyers of Western civilization. (Also notice
that McVeigh, who murdered primarily
children, was not a monster, he was just a terrorist... according to US mainstream media).
When thousands of Indians were dying
from the hands of Pakistani/Pendjabi
terrorists, when hundreds of British and Irish were dying from the hands
of IRA terrorists, when hundreds of Russian civilians were dying from the hands of Chechen terrorists (whom US
mass media and politicians tenderly called "rebels") where was US with its
global war on terror? In fact the main
financial resources of IRA were hidden in the US, but FBI was moving
with the tortilla's speed to freeze or
arrest them, despite numerous requests
from British anti-terrorist services, the fact that did create many unpleasant comments in Great Britain on the selfishness of Yankees at the time (they are not the ones who had been killed then).
Don't tell me about terrorism as the main reason for US and Israel's agressions against other nations and occupation of these countries for decades after the premises for the initial attacks had been long gone.

When US or Israel attacks and fiercely bombs foreign countries not a single soul among
such protectors of international law and order, such zealots of human rights' and life preservation as you pretend to be utter a word in protest,
since it is only Loony left can suspect that even one of those wars
initiated by the "right" (no pun intended) countries can be unjustified, illegal, or morally wrong. It's completely different kettle of fish when the ascribed enemies do the same. They have no right to care about such things as "national security", "national interests", benefitial for their countries trading agreements, and other things that the "right" countries get the perpetual headache
from. What those "not right" countries
are allowed to do is just one:
perpetually care about not even accidentally bothering the "right" ones in any sense, what the latter will think about them doing something, anything benefitial for their nations (from their perspective).


Kid you kid if you want to, but don't spit propagandist lies and double standards to serious and unbiased political observers who know what your "Z" is gonna be, when you just
utter "A".


Rob Willis - 8/22/2006

Yes, it was the way we dealt with Japan and Germany after WW2. But ONLY after we destroyed their psychotic attack on the world, destroyed their ability to fend for themselves, and secured their unconditional surrender. Is this what you are prescribing? The US does not want to "micro-manage" the flow of oil. We prefer that free and sensible governments do that for themselves. There are not too many in that region. For a very long time now.


E. Simon - 8/22/2006

Sukan,

I challenge you to convince any businessperson interested in investing in Gaza that his assets would be in a sufficiently stable and politically secure environment to prevent them from being blown up the next time Palestinian street justice and internecine strife ensues among its own people.

My guess is he won't be interested in figuring out how the U.S. and Israel (where such things aren't a recurring danger) are somehow ultimately responsible for making that the case.


Sukan Gurkaynak - 8/22/2006

This would be right thing to say, if the US were a country not interested in Middle Eastern affairs, like say Agentine. However she is the dominating power trying to micro manage every aspect of political life in the Middle East in order to control the flow of oil, which means it is good politics to assure that everybody has enough to eat. That was the way another generation of US politicians won Europe and Japan after 1945.


Jim Seth Brown - 8/22/2006

The world has given plenty of money to these arab countries to better themselves. They choose not to use it wisely. For example Yatzer Arofat's wife livin large in France. The arabs made their bed and they should deal with what they deserve.


Jim Seth Brown - 8/22/2006

Israel is the bad guy? Give me a break. Your just another anti semite that wished the holocaust succeeded. Why dont you enlighten me with these so called massacres.


Rob Willis - 8/22/2006

Why is it the role of the US to teach a people a work ethic or civilized behavior? Have we not been accused of taking on the "white man's burden" in the past for doing just that? And if the most oil-rich region in the world cannot find a way to mutually support and grow a fertile, peaceful and productive economy, why should we bother?

It is not the US's fault that the people of the region spend precious money, time and resources on devising ways to kill their neighbors. Sorry. Not out burden. Protecting ourselves and our friends is.


Sukan Gurkaynak - 8/22/2006

I commented US policy because the article is about US policy. I am sure the suicide bombers arouse the same feelings. I do feel that governments should be more intelligent than the nuts and terrorists blowing themselves up. I think the superpower US should try to give the people of the middle east the perspective of moderate prosperity by investing in creating jobs in Iraq and Palestine instead of bombing them in the hope that they will at some point give up terrorism. In all the discussions in hnn I see no acknowledgement of the fact that these are desperate unemployed people who see no future for themselves or their families. That is what leads to political extremism, not only in the Middle East. Hitler came to power with 6 million unemployed Germans having nothing to eat, and the situation in Iraq and Palestine is far worse. Stop philosophising about "us and them" and use the oil revenue to give them a future worth living!


Mubde HALABI - 8/22/2006

A World without Israel and its outlaw behaviour and its Dracula style massacres is definitely a better world to live in.


Yehudi Amitz - 8/22/2006

Does Mr. LeVine believe that Hezbollah is going to rebuild the entire Lebanon or only a few houses inside its constituency? I don't believe they have the money to rebuild Lebanon only some small change for propaganda. One of the main results of this war is that any attack on Israel from Lebanon is now the full responsibility of the Lenbanese government. Let see who pays for the "creative destruction" if Hezbollah dares to attack again?
Maybe someone wants to read a different view about this last war?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525911992&;pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

If the link doesn't work the article is from "The Jerusalem Post"

Misreading the Lebanon war
By EDWARD N.LUTTWAK

JPost.com » Opinion » Op-Ed Contributors » Aug. 20, 2006 22:04 | Updated Aug. 21, 2006 9:05


Lorraine Paul - 8/21/2006

If my memory serves me, and it often doesn't, wasn't this the 'big question' that separated the Trotskyists from the Leninists? Without something to put in its place you can't just destroy.

Simplistic I know, but....


Barrie Lambert - 8/21/2006

The notion of creative destruction is an apt analogue, certainly when expressed in Schumpterian terms rather than those of the vulgar sub McCarthyite fantasist of infantile marxism. Schumpeter summarised the "brutal efficiency with which markets reallocate capital from mature technologies to emerging ones", thereby shifting from the old to the new economic paradigm.

This is an appropriate analogue to apply to the middle east. Hizbullah, the new kid on the block, has acceded to what can only be a temporary ceasefire after significantly changing both the strategic position in the middle east, and Arab, Palestinian, Iranian (and European, Chinese, Russian, and perhaps even grownup American) perceptions of that position. The paradigm has shifted. I assume that time is running out on Bush's ability - with Prime Minister Blair's typically fuck witted support - to move on Iran using whatever "terrorist" air outrage comes up as cover in time for the November elections in the USA. And that's the worry. Both the Lebonan and the alleged Heathrow "bomb plot" have just been trial runs, for the main event - which I think we all assume will follow soon because, politically they just ain't got much other choice. Remember, for at least one of them, impeachment awaits.........

But then, on the USA's military's past and current form in the Middle East, and certainly with Israel's profound failure to defeat Hizbullah, the main event is more likely than not to result in a long, lingering bloody mess, and ultimate defeat for US policy. And, if and when it all goes wrong, the world may decide, in the interests of peace, and in recognition of the shifts in the balance of power in a developing multi-polar world, to take a metaphorical eraser and finally wipe the state of Israel off the map and, of course, seek first to negotiate, and then perhaps to impose a bi-national state, a homeland for two, or more, peoples in Palestine in which they may choose, through common political institutions, to work together for the good of all.

So, to put Joseph Schumpeter in today's terms: on balance, and over the long term, we might expect many more ups than downs from creative destruction in the Lebanon.


Arnold Shcherban - 8/21/2006

Classical Marxism did essentially imply constructive destruction in the sense of replacing capitalist socio-economic prerogatives with socialist ones.
The rest of Mr. Keuter's pseudo-analytical conclusions is obsolete nonsense that was rebuked
by many Marxist theoreticians on miriad occasions.

Marxism (in difference with some of those who called themselves Marxist or who were called Marxists by their supporters), as a scientific approach to history and ideological design has never agitated proletariat towards physical elimination of members of other social classes or any other repressions against them.
The basic and main claim of Classical Marxism presented in any abbreviated format is the following: capitalism is not a final and the best possible stage in socio-economic development of mankind, but only consequtive, exploatationary by nature stage in the latter that will be replaced
by the first non-exploatationary historical stage: socialism.
It will happen when MOSTLY developed (rich) capitalist countries achieved the level in their development when
the class of exploatators (the ones who own the means of production) are unable to effect futher economic and social evolvement through the old ownership system and the exploatated class (proletariat) clearly recognizes the current capitalist system as largely antagonistic to its social and political interests.
The passage to socialism, the truly democratic society, i.e. the society
where power belongs to working majority and works along the interests of the majority,
therefore, and hopefully, will occur peacefully without much resistance coming from the owner class.
However, if such resistance, especially sabotage, and armed resistance occurs, it supression will be morally and legally justified by the democratic nature of the socialist and proletariat's hegemony.

Note: I'm far from being an apologet
of the horrible crimes committed by some of those who considered themselves truly Marxist, and of the totalitarian nature of the regimes
created by them; I'm for scientific
objectivity and against vicious ideological double standards continuously perpetrated by anti-Left
to justify their own crimes, including genocide against socio-political opposition.


Vernon Clayson - 8/21/2006

Mr. Knicely, back to the Bush is dumb premise, huh? How about creative destruction from the side of the Muslim suicide bombers or isn't that empiralism in a sick form? Kill Jews, destroy Israel, and reduce their modern democratic nation to the vagaries of Islamic tribalism as practiced in the so-called nation state of Palestine?? No one in charge and everyone in charge? That will help Bush enrich his base? How????


Vernon Clayson - 8/21/2006

Ms. Gurkaynak, it's odd that you would make that "annoys" statement about the US and Israeli aerial bombings and not make the same connection to Muslim suicide bombers, don't you think that those homicidal acts against the Israelis annoyed them, or us in Iraq? Aren't you being a little one-sided for history purposes?


James Spence - 8/21/2006

Thanks


Charles Alan Knicely - 8/21/2006

creative distruction is distruction to profit from empiralism and the problem with the Bush administration is it has not got the mental capacity to competently reconstruct anything and the only creative thing they do is enriching their base.


Jorge Contreras - 8/21/2006


Who is 'Rudolph' Schumpter? Brother of Joseph?

Mr. Keuter is correct that Schumpeter borrowed the concept from Marx (see Marshall Berman or New Left Review of 'the bourgeois Marx'), but the rest of his contribution is tired anti-communist blather.


James Spence - 8/21/2006

I have no idea what you are saying in your conclusion as regards to Levine's article. But are you saying that Michael Leeden is an creative destruction Marxist? I don't know why Levine didn't completely quote it Leeden but Leeden is the one who is using the phrase to decribe his beleifs.

“Creative destruction is our middle name” (Leeden, third paragraph)
http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/ledeen092001.shtml


Sukan Gurkaynak - 8/21/2006

It seems to me quite obvious that bombing people annoys them and makes them to your enemies. Maybe the US government needs less philosophy and more common sense.


Jason Blake Keuter - 8/21/2006

Actually, creative destruction is a core Marxist concept. Marxist "creative" destruction differs greatly from capitalist, creative destruction. For openers, while capitalist creative destruction entails changing what is produced and the way it is produced in response to competition to meet ever changing consumer demand, Marxist creative destruction calls for the death of obsolescent social classes, postulating that their continued existence is an impediment to human progress. Since the future will be better than the present, destroying these social classes becomes a moral imperative.

It is a short step from calling for the destruction of a social class to calling for the destruction off those who won't participate in the destruction of a social class. Hence the totalitarian dungeon that are the logical outcome of the Marxist formula.

In conclusion, capitalist creative destruction is a metaphor for the revolutionary potential of capitalism and has no preconceived end and cannot take place without liberty. Marxist creative destruction, on the other hand, is not a metaphor. Destruction is the essence of the doctrine. Further, it is an oxymoron unless we can somehow disassociate the word "creative" from any postitive connotations.