Blogs > HNN > Daniel Pipes, Review of Jeffrey Herf's "Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World" (Yale, 2009)

Apr 15, 2010 2:57 pm


Daniel Pipes, Review of Jeffrey Herf's "Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World" (Yale, 2009)



[Daniel Pipes (www.DanielPipes.org) is director of the Middle East Forum, Taube Distinguished Visiting Fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University, and a columnist for the Jerusalem Post. This is an slightly different version of a review that appeared in Commentary Magazine.]

The impact of National Socialism in the Middle East used to appear brief and superficial. Unlike with Communism, whose local parties and outside influence through the Soviet bloc lasted over many decades, the Nazis' moment lasted about six years, 1939-45, and they had little regional presence beyond Rommel's armies in North Africa and a fleeting pro-Nazi regime in Iraq.

But two powerful, important books have set the record straight. Djihad und Judenhass (2002) by Matthias Küntzel, translated into English in 2007 as Jihad and Jew-Hatred: Islamism, Nazism and the Roots of 9/11, shows the continuing influence of Nazi ideas on Islamists. Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World by Jeffrey Herf focuses on an earlier time, the 1930s-40s, and the major effort by Hitler and his minions to transmit their ideas to the Middle East. After reading Küntzel and Herf, I realize that my education about the modern Middle East was lacking a vital ingredient, the Nazi one.

A specialist in modern German history at the University of Maryland, Herf brings a new corpus of information to light: summary accounts of Nazi shortwave radio broadcasts in the Arabic language that were generated over three years by the U.S. embassy in Cairo. This cache reveals fully, for the first time, what Berlin told the Arabs (and to a lesser extent, the Iranians). As page after page of Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World establishes in mind-numbing but necessary detail, the Germans above all pursued two themes: stopping Zionism and promoting Islamism. Each deserves close consideration.

Nazi propaganda in Arabic portrayed World War II, history's largest and most destructive war, as focused primarily on the sliver of land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. This interpretation both flattered Arabs and extended Hitler's grand theory that Jews wanted to take over the Arab countries and eventually the whole world, that the Allied powers were but pawns in this Zionist conspiracy, and that Germany was leading the resistance to them.


Palestine was the key, according to these broadcasts. If Zionists took it over, they would "control the three continents: Europe, Asia, and Africa. Thus they will be able to rule the whole world and spread Jewish capitalism." Such an eventuality would lead to Arabs oppressed and Islam defunct. "Should Bolshevism and Democracy be victorious," announced Nazi radio, "the Arabs will be dominated forever and all traces of Islam will be wiped out." To avoid this fate, Arabs had to join with the Axis.

As the war progressed, Berlin's incitement became ever more furious. "You must kill the Jews before they open fire on you. Kill the Jews" went a July 1942 broadcast. Herf notes the bitter irony: "At this moment of complete Jewish powerlessness, the Arabic broadcasts from Berlin skillfully adapted the general Nazi propaganda line about Jewish domination of the anti-Hitler coalition to a radical Arab and Islamic view."

At the same time, the Nazi regime developed an approach to Muslims that largely ignored the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Mein Kampf, and other European sources in favor of selected passages from the Koran.

Hitler's propagandists assured Muslims, first, that Axis countries "respect the Koran, sanctify the mosques, and glorify the prophet of Islam." It cited the respectful work of German Orientalists as an important sign of goodwill. Second, it argued for what Heinrich Himmler called the "shared goals and shared ideals" of Islam and National Socialism. These included monotheism, piety, obedience, discipline, self-sacrifice, courage, honor, generosity, community, unity, anti-capitalism, and a celebration of labor and warfare.

In addition, Muslims were told that they and the Nazis were purportedly both fighting a "great struggle for freedom" against the British, the most important colonial power in the Middle East. The regime drew a parallel between Muhammad and Hitler and presented the umma as roughly analogous to its own notion of a totalitarian Volksgemeinschaft ("people's community").

Nazis portrayed Islam as an ally and, accordingly, called for its revival while urging Muslims to act piously and emulate Muhammad. Radio Berlin in Arabic went so far as to declare "Allahu akbar! Glory to the Arabs, Glory to Islam." The Germans held that Muslims who were not righteous enough (i.e., not following the Nazi ideological model) were causing the umma to languish: "Muslims, you are now backward because you have not shown God the proper piety and do not fear him." And not just backward, but also "invaded by merciless tyrants." Specifically for Shi'ites, the Nazis hinted at Hitler being the awaited Twelfth Imam or the Muslim eschatological figure of Jesus, who will fight the anti-Christ (namely, the Jews) and bring on the end of days.

The Nazis noted the parallel between sayings from the Koran (Sura 5:82, "You will meet no greater enemy of the believers than the Jews") and the words of Hitler ("By resisting the Jews everywhere, I am fighting for the Lord's work") and turned the Koran into an anti-Semitic tract whose primary purpose was to call for eternal hatred of Jews. They even falsely claimed that Muhammad ordered Muslims to fight the Jews "until they are extinct."

In the Nazi telling, Jewish-Muslim enmity dated back to the 7th century. "Since the days of Mohamed, the Jews have been hostile to Islam" went one broadcast. "Every Moslem knows that Jewish animosity to the Arabs dates back to the dawn of Islam" declared another. "Enmity has always existed between Arab and Jew since ancient times" insisted a third. The Nazis built on this premise to establish the basis for a Final Solution in the Middle East, instructing Arabs to "make every effort possible so that not a single Jew … remains in Arab countries."

Herf emphasizes the remarkable symbiosis of German and Middle Eastern elements: "As a result of their shared passions and interests, they produced texts and broadcasts that each group could not have produced on its own." Specifically, Arabs learned "the finer points of anti-Semitic conspiracy thinking," while Nazis learned the value of focusing on Palestine. He describes the coming together of Nazi and Islamic themes in Berlin as "one of the most important cultural exchanges of the twentieth century."

Having detailed Nazi propaganda in Arabic, Herf then traces its impact. He begins by documenting the great energy and expense devoted to these messages—the quality of the personnel devoted to it, their high-level Nazi patronage, the thousands of hours of radio transmissions, and the millions of pamphlets.

He then rounds up assessments of the Axis impact, all pointing to its success. Allied estimates from 1942, for example, found that "the people were saturated with Axis talk," that "upwards of three-fourths of the Moslem world are in favor of the Axis" and that "90% of the Egyptians, including their government, believe that the Jews are mainly responsible for shortages and high prices of essentials." A report from 1944 found that "practically all Arabs who have radios … listen to Berlin."

Allied reluctance to contradict Nazi propaganda also points to Axis success. Fearful of alienating Middle Easterners, the Allies stayed humiliatingly silent about the genocide taking place against the Jews; failed to refute allegations about Jews dominating London, Washington, and Moscow; did not dispute the distorted Koranic interpretations; and shied away from endorsing Zionism. Merely to dispute Nazi accusations, the Allies worried, would only confirm Nazi claims about Britain, America, and Russia being stooges of Jewish power. An internal U.S. directive in late 1942 acknowledged that "the subject of Zionist aspirations cannot be mentioned, inasmuch as … [this] would jeopardize our strategy in the Eastern Mediterranean."

Thus, when two leading U.S. senators, Robert Taft of Ohio and Robert Wagner of New York, proposed a resolution in 1944 endorsing a Jewish national home in Palestine, Berlin radio in Arabic called this an attempt "to erase Islamic civilization" and "to eradicate the Koran." Panicked, the entire weight of the Executive Branch came down on the senators, who felt compelled to withdraw their resolution. Clearly, Nazi offerings resonated deeply in the Middle East.

They continued to do well after the Nazi collapse and the war's conclusion. The defeat of Nazi General Erwin Rommel's aggressive push into North Africa meant that Nazi ambitions in the Middle East, in particular the Final Solution to annihilate its million or so Jews, were never implemented. But years of hate from radio and pamphlets and the repetitive, grotesque, ambitious, anti-Semitic, and Islam-based message detailed by Herf had taken root. Not only did the Middle East's Nazis emerge nearly invulnerable to prosecution, but they also prospered and were feted. An example: in 1946, Hasan al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brethren, lavished praise on Hitler's favorite Arab, Haj Amin el-Husseini, calling him "a hero … a miracle of a man." Banna added for good measure: "Germany and Hitler are gone, but Amin el-Husseini will continue the struggle." Acknowledging el-Husseini's exalted status, a British officer in 1948 described him as "the one hero in the Arab world."

Ideas the Nazis spread in the Middle East have had an enduring twofold legacy. First, as in Europe, they built on existing prejudices against Jews to transform that prejudice into something far more paranoid, aggressive, and murderous. One U.S. intelligence report from 1944 estimated that anti-Jewish materials constituted fully half of German propaganda directed to the Middle East. The Nazis saw virtually all developments in the region through the Jewish prism and exported this obsession.

The fruits of this effort are seen not only in decades of furious Muslim anti-Zionism, personified by Arafat and Ahmadinejad, but also in the persecution of ancient Jewish communities in countries like Egypt and Iraq, which have now shriveled to near-extinction, plus the employment of Nazis such as Johann van Leers and Aloïs Brunner in important government positions. Thus did the Nazi legacy oppress Jewry in the Middle East post-1945.

Second, Islamism took on a Nazi quality. As someone who has criticized the term Islamofascism on the grounds that it gratuitously conflates two distinct phenomena, I have to report that Herf's evidence now leads me to acknowledge deep fascist influences on Islamism. This includes the Islamist hatred of democracy and liberalism and its contempt for multiple political parties, preference for unity over division, cult of youth and militarism, authoritarian moralism, cultural repression, and illiberal economics.

Beyond specifics, that influence extends to what Herf calls an "ability to introduce a radical message in ways that resonated with, yet deepened and radicalized, already existing sentiments." Although a scholar of Europe by training, Herf's detective work in the U.S. archives has opened a new vista on the Arab-Israeli conflict and Islamism, as well as made a landmark contribution more broadly to an understanding of the modern Middle East.




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Fahrettin Tahir - 7/16/2010

James,

the colonialist powers have done gross injustice to all their subjects. Morally none of that can be accepted. Do you think I find the status of the Balkans, the Ottoman Rumelia just? I don’t. But continuing to fight wars would be even worse because they would rob the unborn of their right to a decent life. That is why all over Europe and Asia people have accepted the unacceptable and gain from living in peace.

I find it strange when US Americans start to moralize about other countries. The US was populated by Indians. In was colonized by Europeans and to the best of my knowledge 95 % of the Indians were murdered to make place for European immigrants. That is the US heritage, far worse than anything which happened in Palestine or for that matter to the Armenians about which US congress seems to be so interested. The US is the white colony you are talking about and its BS has won.

Forgetting all that and telling the Palestinians to fight on is telling them to continue to die and waste their children’s chances in life. You can see children throwing stones and Molotov cocktails, 2 year old babies parading, wearing dummy sucide attack bombs. Proud parents hoping their children will die soon! That is their life. Is that not worse than losing a bit of land and moving on?

I know the neo nazis and necktie wearing folk who are not any better. That has nothing to with Cyprus but with people like me, you get them even when you move on.

Life is hard.


arthur m. eckstein - 7/15/2010

Mr. Butler, half the Israeli Jewish population are refugees from the Middle East, forced out of countries in which they'd lived thousands of years by those very nefarious sheikhs and dictators whom you agree are evil--and, indeed, as part of those men's plan to distract their own populations with the Palestinian plight and with anti-semitism, which you also agree is evil.

There's been plenty of suffering to go around. You want to compensate the Palestinians? Get the Arabs to give them all the Jewish property they seized when they threw the Jews out. Because some Muslim is enjoying that property as we speak--and yet this is never an issue for violent Islamists like Omar, or for people like yourself.

But in any case this huge fact which you ignore means that we're not talking about a "white colony"--which is the narrative that allows you to delegitimize Israel and support Omar in his destructive desires. But the situation is much much more complicated than that. And that is Fahrettin's point as well. In order to get to your narrative, your vision of Israel, you have to erase half the Jewish population of Israel from discussion. It's not a legitimate thing to do.

Mr. Butler, the Palestinians can have a state any time they want. They could have had it in 1947. They could have had it in 2000/2001. Each time, they chose genocidal violence instead. That they were dissatisfied does not make them right. The relationship between Palestinians and Israelis is synergistic, a feedback loop, not one-sided, Israel-outward to the victims. The Palestinian responsibility for the current situation, including the tragedy of their own situation, is very heavy. That must be taken into account in any general judgment of the situation, just as the fact that half the Jewish population of Israel are Middle Easterners themselves--and Middle Eastern refugees to boot.

Or do you think we must treat the Palestinians as children who have no responsibility for the consequences wreaked by their violent and destructive actions and decisions, starting with their following their leader in 1947, the unreconstructed genocidal Nazi Amin al-Husseini? To take such an attitude towards the Palestinians would be patronizing to the point of being racist, would it not?




james joseph butler - 7/15/2010

"They were made to suffer to keep the wound bleeding." Fahrettin implying that the nefarious shahs and sheiks employed their master plan to use the pitiful Palestinians as middlemen to maintain their concubines and control. We agree.

However within the larger scale of historical sins and strategies the idea that you share with Art that the Palestinians need to move on so progress can do it's thing is morally and intellectually stunted.

Fahrettin, Art will use you because like Von Clauswitz, "The conqueror is always a lover of peace." You've moved on, your life is comfortable. The neo-Nazis who swim past your screen who love lightning bolts, leather, and anti-Semitism, have nothing to do with Cyprus.

Ethnic hate is a fecund wellhead that Art is only to happy to use to divert your attention from the gross injustice that is the UN's 1947 decision regarding Israel Palestine. Israel is the last white colony that thinks it's BS will ultimately win. All its Phd.s, orange groves, and nukes can't hide the truth.


arthur m. eckstein - 7/15/2010

Fahrettin,

Yes: the Turkish refugee population in northern Cyprus was even larger than I wrote, because of the events of 1963; perhaps another 30,000 or more Turkish Cypriot refugees were generated by the 1963 violence (1/6 or 1/5 of the entire Turkish Cypriot population in 1963).

This makes the large Turkish Cypriot vote for the Annan Plan in 2004, with its severe restrictions on right of return, all the more illuminating. It confirms your perspective.

You are right as well to point out how Mein Kampf's evil effects continue, this time in Turkey. It is a best seller in the PA and Gaza as well. (And among Muslims as far from the Middle East as Bangladesh) Chilling.


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/15/2010

Art

Actually most Turkish Cypriot refugees became refugees after 1963 so the figure of 45 –60 000 in 1974 is only a part of the total. But this does not change the essentials.

Presumably Omar with his excellent English is also a settler on the previously Indian territory called USA. So is life.

Going back to Nazi influence.

Over the last 10 years Hitler’s Mein Kampf has been breaking sales records in Turkey, until the EU had it banned. At the same time anti semitism is on the rise, fuelled partially by Hitler’s nonsense.

There you can watch in real time what influence this evil is having on people.

The second reason is Arab oil sheikhs financing the local Islamists and expecting anti semitism for their money.


arthur m. eckstein - 7/15/2010

I forgot to add:

The number of Turkish Cypriot refugees created by 1974 was between 45,000 and 65,000. Under the Annan Plan they would have been under the exact same restrictions as the Greek Cypriot refugees regarding right of return (in their case, return to southern Cyprus): who can go back (only those over 65), and percentage of the (now) "indigenous" population (not more than 5%).

In the referendum on Cyprus regarding the Annan Plan, Turkish northern Cyprus voted FOR it (65% yes, 35% no), whereas Greek southern Cyprus voted no (25% yes, 75% no). Because there were more Greek Cypriots, the plan was defeated.

Nevertheless, the voting confirms what Fahrettin has repeatedly said: the Turks (both the refugee populations from Europe in Anatolia, and the Cypriot Turkish population in northern Cyprus) were willing to accept reality and move on.

The Greeks were not willing to do either.

So right now the 1974 events on Cyprus have created a permanent population transfer (45,000-65,000 Turkish Cypriots fleeing north, 160,000-200,000 Greek Cypriots fleeing south). The Partition of India did the same, but on a huge huge scale (14 million refugees, with about one million (!) actually killed). Fahrettin has pointed this out above. And so did the Partition of the Palestine Mandate, happening at the same time as the Partition of India, with not only the Nakbah (750,000 Palestinians fleeing) but in addition 850,000 Jews being forced from Muslim lands by 1960, and most ending up in Israel. The result: today about half the Israeli Jewish population is of Middle Eastern--NOT European--descent. Just as a large part of the modern Turkish population are refugees from Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia and Greece, not from central Asia.


arthur m. eckstein - 7/15/2010

Nothing prevented the Palestinians from establishing their own state on the land they got under the UN Partition of the Mandate, which was a majority of the Mandate. Instead they attacked their neighbors and started a war (including ethnic cleansing) that they were winning for the first five months. Not even the Palestinian defeat by the proto-Israelis, even when backed by five Arab armies, blocked the creation of a Palestinian state. It was two Arab states that did that. Because during the war Jordan conquered the West Bank for itself and officially encorporated it into the Kingdom of Jordan; so it appeared on world maps between 1948 and 1967--as officially a part of Jordan. (No one protested.) Similarly, Egypt conquered Gaza during the war and then officially encorporated it into Egypt. That is how Gaza appeared on maps between 1948 and 1967--as offically a part of Egypt. (No one protested.) This is why the Palestinians didn't have a state from 1947 to 1967, and the Arab countries were the culprits in that.

Further, and in general, instead of fostering some sort of settlement, Arab governments for the past 60 years have preferred to have the Palestinians kept as refugees, whose fate could be used to distract their own populations from the corruption and inefficiency of those governments by fulminating hatred of Israel.

The Israelis for their part should have proclaimed a Palestinian state a la 1947 when they conquered the West Bank from Jordan in 1967. It was a major mistake that they didn't do it, as far as I am concerned. Instead they began those awful West Bank settlements (i.e., they acted not much different from Jordan). They too are culprits here.

Regarding Cyprus:

As I understand the Kofi Annan Peace Plan of 2004 for Cyprus, Cyprus would be a federation of a totally autonomous Greek southern Cyprus and a totally autonomous Turkish northern Cyprus; as far as the right of return of the Greek Cypriot refugees created in 1974 (estimates range from 160,000 to 200,000 originally), only Greek Cypriots over 65 (i.e., the original refugees, not their descendants) could return to northern Cyprus, which would remain garrisoned by the Turkish Army; they would essentially receive no compensation for their lost property; and the returned Greeks could never (by law) constitute more than 5% of the population of Turkish-occupied northern Cyprus or any one location there.

Why do I mention the UN Peace Plan? My point is that THIS plan of 2004 is the UN's idea of a right of return for refugees--on Cyprus, anyway. I think most Israelis would accept it!


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/14/2010

James

The first 20th century genocide after a lot of 19th century genocides was in German South West Africa, after that the Hottentots were no more.

The second genocide was in the Balkan war 1912 after that the Balkan Moslems were gone.

In the partition of India 1947 millions were killed and deported, as were Germans at the end of WW2.

Greeks partitioned Cyprus in 1963, in 1974 Turkey enlarged the Turkish area. Around half the population of Cyprus became refugees.

In al thes cases the survivors were taken by their compatriots and given a second chance in life by their own people. Usually they received compensation for lost properties.

The Palestinians were not.

They were made to suffer to keep the would bleeding.

That is the real crime, selling out your brothers, done by Kings, Sheikhs and dictators.

I do not know if the Palestinians will prevail in the end. But it looks like a lot more human suffering. Is that smart?

You move on, that is nature's way.


james joseph butler - 7/14/2010

I have to agree with Omar. Fahrettin I know you're right regarding the assimilation of refugees within many countries but when you state, "The real crime done to the Palestinians was done by the other Arab countries." you're wack. How can the "real crime" be committeed by a third party? If I take your land and kill your cousins would your "real" anger aim at me, the killer thief, or at your lazy neighbors who could be more helpful? You're right maybe it would be aimed at the neighbors because they're accessible and haven't wrapped themselves up in ancient texts, American media, and nukes.

A lot of the writing here, HNN, is history preening, this allusion elicts that reference, to that country, this century, those people, etc.

Fahrettin, of course I know that Israel is a convenient whipping boy for autocrats around the planet, let alone the sad excuses for leadership that the Ummah live with, and that the Palestinians are not sui generis. You compare the Palestinians to "Cretan Muslims, Crimean Tartars, Cherkness from Caucasus, Albanians, Bosnians", but that's you an(I don't know if you're a German citizen.) expat Turk living in Germany. You and I have a lot in common, we believe in moving on. It's nature's way.

But, times change, duh. The last colony meets the information age. Imagine if Israel had shot up the Malvina in 1710,or 1910, who knew????? Omar's right Fahrettin, because while your historical precursors worked then this is now. The Palestinians are not going to take their cues from the Tartars or Albanians (Please see how the US Congress responded to the 1st 20th century genocide, the Armenian, after the Malvina debacle.) because they're smart enough not to. In this environment they will prevail on their terms.


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/14/2010

James

The Turks have a big piece of land and so the Arabs. The Arabs' piece is much bigger than of the Turks'.

The difference is the Turks have integrated their refugees who lost their homes somewhere else the Arabs have kept the Palestinians in concentration camps to keep the fight going on.

All over Turkey you will find Cretan Moslems, Crimean Tatars, Cherkess from the Caucasus, Albanians, Bosnians, Pomakcs, Turks from Bulgaria etc etc.

The Arabs could have done the same with their far fewer Palestinian refugees. They have not done so so to keep them suffering and angry.

Europe, Pakistan, India is full of the descendanty of refugees. All intergrated. The USA is full of refugees, Israel has taken millions of deported Jews from the Arab countries.

The real crime done to the Palestinians was done by the other Arab countries.


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/14/2010

Omar

do you think Greece and Bulgaria would accept taking back the descendants of the people who their grandfathers have deported?

Keep in mind, this would mean a Moslem majority for the Northen half of Greece, Crete, the Islands and the whole of Bulgaria.

It would be the end of both countries as they stand today.

In real life you sometimes have injust peace or war and your people suffer more from war than from an injust peace.

The whole history of Europe is one of injust peace treaties.

Who is more fortunate, the Palestinians or the Europeans?


omar ibrahim baker - 7/13/2010

James
Only an equitable resolution that recognizes all Palestinians rights in their homeland will conclude peacefully this conflict.
That does not necessarily mean the dismantlement of Israel


james joseph butler - 7/13/2010

Omar, Fahrettin is trying to ask you is, when does it stop? He thinks the Palestinians need to make peace. Fahrettin the Turks have dignity and a big chunk of land. The Palestinians have neither. I agree with Omar that the Israelis have a voracious, Zionist infused appetite for land, Eretz Israel is their goal. However I don't think that will happen anymore than the demise of Israel will happen. It's too late for Israel to disappear.

I have a great uncle who fled Ireland because of his involvement in the death of Michael Collins. I think he was wrong. He was a sore loser. If the Israelis can ever see fit to accepting something like the Geneva Accord the Palestinians should move on as Fahrettin recognizes.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/13/2010

Fahrettin
I see no point in your posts .
It is not a match between us as to whose victims exceed whose victims.
We are NOT competing here..
This is something you must understand.
That I have been stressing Palestinian victims of the Zionist colonialist conquest of Palestine is because I have been addressing the Palestinian issue.
That in no way underestimates or belittles Turkish victims as you imply.
However I believe you err very gravely, if what you write is written in good faith, when you use the argument that we had more victims that you did...and Russia in WWII had more victims that the total of our two nations..so what..that is not the issue we are addressing here and now.
Fahrettin
If you chose to forgive and forget that is your decision and your privilege...we will neither forgive nor forget and that is our decision and our privilege whether you agree or NOT.


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/13/2010

Omar

you have written about several hundred Arabs being murdered. I have written about several million Turks murdered.

At the end of WW 1 around 22 000 Turkish prisoners of war were murdered by the people you can see fighting the Turks on British pay in the film Lawrence of Arabia .

That is probably more than the sum of all Arabs killed by Israelis in all wars they have ever fought.

Turks still love the Arabs and do not quote such murders as a reason to hate them.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/13/2010

Fahrettin
You claim :" Fact is your "aliens" were far more civilized "; seemingly you have never heard of Deir Yassin.
I propose you Google it and the eviction of Lod and Ramla.

Contrary to your assertion I did NOT make any comparison between who is worse and who is less worse ;in principle I believe that a crime is a crime is a crime ; a massacre is a massacre is a massacre!

My whole starting point was that with or without Nazi propaganda the Palestinians had, still have,highly valid and legitimate reasons to reject, oppose and hate those that colonized their homeland dislocated them there from and supplanted them with aliens
For Pipes to commend the research done to find out reasons for that hate while forgetting the obvious is , as I said earlier, as meaningless, frivolous and pointless an endeavor as a research that searches for the reasons behind Jewish hate of Hitler and Nazism.
Regards


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/13/2010

Omar

seen like that Palestine is just one more issue from the aftemath of the Ottoman empire.

If millions are killed and deported it matters not the least if it is ALIENS (clingons?) or that part of the initial poulation which has not become Moslem doing the atrocities.

Fact is your "aliens" were far more civilized than the local thugs who were mass murdering Moslems with ALIEN support.

The locals could simply have continued to live where they had always lived.

The aliens were the survivors of one of the worst crimes in human history.

The challenge today is to find a future for all without further dying.

The article argues that Nazi ideology is one of the complications to finding a peace.

If you look at your arguments, you are arguing that Zionists ar worse than other people even if the other people were guilty of far worse than your complaints.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/13/2010

Fahrettin
You do me a grave injustice when you claim that "5 million dead and 30 million European Moslems in exile do not count for you. "
Should you ever go back quietly to our dialogue you will find out that we were discussing two different issues:
-I was dwelling on the issue of ALIENS establishing a Zionist colony in Palestine
-You were dwelling on the after math of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire
Best of luck and regards


omar ibrahim baker - 7/13/2010

Prof
-"armed with iron bars" ... you forgot to add and "kitchen knives".
Well you make my day Prof when you feel compelled to do and say that!!
XXXXXX
-"Jews short of money" ...that is real earth shaking news
and
"intent on buying only unused land" that is really noble but more importantly impossible to prove or disprove which is the whole point behind this flight of imagination


arthur m. eckstein - 7/13/2010

The difference, Mr. Butler, is that Indiana Jones is fiction and Husseini was real.

He was no boogy-man; he was the real leader of the real Palestinians, and his real decisions and real actions were very influential and remain so.

This an elementary distinction which has apparently escaped you.


arthur m. eckstein - 7/12/2010

The videos show them armed with iron bars and practicing with them beforehand, singing songs promising death to the Jews, and replying to the Israeli demand to halt with the phrase, "Go back to Auschwitz."

As for the land issue, the conclusion of the standard work on that issue is that there were always more willing Palestinian sellers of land to Jews than there was Jewish money to buy it. Further, the Jewish buyers wanted land above all where there were no existing tenant farmers, no one to be displaced with all the attendant problems. (Just the opposite of what you claim.) K. W. Stein, The Land Question in Palestine, 1917-1939 (University of North Carolina Press, 1987).


arthur m. eckstein - 7/12/2010

Omar had no way to respond to your powerful points, Fahrettin. So he's simply left the conversation!


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/12/2010

Omar

ultimately the AKP will not be able to give you anything more than a two state solution.

I can not understand that 5 million dead and 30 million European Moslems in exile do not count for you.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/12/2010

Prof
You seem to have skipped the land ownership issue.
I can see why!


omar ibrahim baker - 7/12/2010

Fahrettin
I see no point in continuing this discussion .
Although I am disappointed with both your analogies, where none exist, and your untenable advice you certainly are free to believe what ever you choose to believe in.
One comforting element though is that the majority of Turks seem NOT to share your opinion.
Ultimately that is what counts: what the brotherly Turkish nation believes in.
Regards


james joseph butler - 7/12/2010

Art, "in reality history developed the way I said," Eckstein,

Nick Kristof had an interesting piece in the NYTimes a few days ago about how great it would be if a female Palestinian Gandi would materialize to bring peace. Apart from recognizing the obvious, women are wiser than men, and I and many others said the same thing without the girl thing long ago, Kristof failed to note that the IDF bulldozes non-violent women as well as men.

The larger point is that playing this game of history tag, na na naa nah, you've got Nazi cooties, is silly.

If Gandi was the ideal model why hasn't South Asia been peaceful for as long as Israel has existed? Did the Russians and Poles need the Nazis to tell them how to kill Jews? This is no more than name calling, jejune net posturing.

Aliyah is a better touchstone if you're interested in approximating truth. Let us read from David ben-Gurion: "The Arabs will have to go.... I am for compulsory transfer. I do not see anything immoral in it." ...Palestinians "can either be mass arrested or expelled, it is better to expel them.

From Dayan:"we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived." ..."there is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

Moshe Sharett, first Israeli foreign minister: "We have to conquer a country from the people inhabiting it."

Gideaon Rafael, Israeli Ambassador to the U.N. after listening to Dayan discuss the necessity for maintaining "tension" as a prerequisite for military action,"This is how fascism began in Italy and Germany."

I agree with Fahrettin that at some point people on both sides need to say, STOP the madness. I also think that the truth, in the form of full disclosure, is the sine qua non for the push for peace.

Pipes' and Eckstein's fixation on the, "Nazi Husseini leading the Palestinians into utter disaster," and "the creation of all the tropes of Islamism that are so deadly today.", isn't much different from Indiana Jones' and Steven Spielberg's choice of boogeymen. No one does it better than the Nazis. Of course I recognize the flippancy of the previous sentence but it's true. The Nazis had better uniforms and documentarians than anyone else. They were nonpareil monsters and stylists. I believe in the Holocaust 1000 percent. It's just that Husseini is a footnote, nothing more, in the Zionist Palestinian narrative.

If I want to begin to understand Israel I need to understand imperialism. Indigenous peoples are either vacant or needing first world remediation. The enlightened are here to help. It's another "trope" as Art would say.


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/12/2010

Omar,

you still do not want to understand.

The Greek nation was over a large part of what later became Greece a minority. History had made us Moslems of various ethnic origins to a majority.

They have reached their objective of a Greek majority country by mass murdering and deporting the Moslem population!

What is Greek today is not necessarily descended from what was a Greek 2000 years ago. Greek simply means a member of the Greek orthodox church. Some are real Greeks, others albanians, slavs or ethnic Turks.

That is like mass murdering and deporting all Egyptian Moslems to return the country to its original christian inhabitants.

The real ethnic Turks who lived in the North of Greece were there longer than the Arabs in Palestine.

you say:

3- dislocating and evicting ,i e ethnically cleansing, a substantial proportion of the native indigenous population of that land
4-denying that portion of the native population who moved away from war theatres or who were forcedly evicted and transferred away from their lands and homes from returning to their homeland and repossessing their homes.

that this happened only in Palestine.

I tell you it happened all over the Balkans. There are 30 million citizens of Turkey who are descended from the ethnically cleaned European Moslems. 5 millions were murdered in the process!

You keep complaining about two villages with several hundred dead Palestinians I tell you: 5 million dead European Moslems.

30 Million people who can not go back to their ancestral lands.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/12/2010

Fahrettin
I do see your point which seems to be muddled enough in that it finds analogies where none exist.

Greece, for example, did not as part of the Ottoman empire exist as an independent state but it did exist as a "country", as a nation.
It existed as that part of the Ottoman empire in which GREEKS, a predominantly indigenous Greek population, dwelled.
You seem to confuse two things here : the nation, whether independent or not, and the state.

Some decades back, say, neither India nor Indonesia existed as independent states but they were always there as nations.You do see that I am sure!

Israel, on the other hand, did NOT exist in Palestine neither as a nation nor as state for some 2000 + years prior to 1948 .

A minor Jewish community still existed in Palestine since their dispersion by the Romans,at BC time that is, whose members since the 600s AD never exceeded 10% of the total Palestinian population and was only 8.6 %(+/-) in the 1920s ie circa the Balfour Declaration.
That less than 10% was increased to some 32% by the 1940s due to the Jewish forced entry, being against the will of the majority of the Palestinian people, and only became a state in 1948.
For that state to become a nation ( an unparalled event of modern times , the norm being nations becoming states and not vice cersa) it managed to achieve a Jewish population majority in the era it dominated by:
a-allowing in only Jewish ALIENS from all over the world and
b-ethnically cleansing the lands it colonized and dominated from its indigenous Arab population via massacres of civilians ( Deir Yassin ,Tantura etc)and mass eviction and transportation (Lod, Ramala etc)
and
c- denying indigenous Arabs who moved away from theatres of war operations the RIGHT to RETURN to their homeland and homes.

What we have here in brief is a state that only became a nation after
1-forcing its way into an inhabited and populated land that did not belong to it
2-importing, allowing in, aliens of a specific ethnicity only, ie racially screened and selected Jews, to beef up their numbers and
3- dislocating and evicting ,i e ethnically cleansing, a substantial proportion of the native indigenous population of that land
4-denying that portion of the native population who moved away from war theatres or who were forcedly evicted and transferred away from their lands and homes from returning to their homeland and repossessing their homes.

Should you ponder these irrefutable historical facts you will note that:
-Factors (1) and (2) above are typical of and common to all colonialist projects as in the colonies of South Africa, Angola and Algeria.
-Factors (3) and (4) are practically unique to the Zionist colonialist project.
-Factor (2) is shared and is common with the colony South Africa which, to protect its colonialist project, developed the Apartheids system of racial discrimination.

What is practically unique to the Zionist colonialist project that makes it more racist than even the colony of South Africa is that its main objective was, still is, to establish a colony in which a certain race, the JEWS, not only predominates but also constitutes the majority of its population.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/12/2010

Prof
Are you sure "they were armed .... "??


arthur m. eckstein - 7/12/2010

To Mr. Butler: you might be right, but in reality history developed the way I said, with the unreconstructed Nazi Husseini leading the Palestinians into utter disaster, and yet still being hugely influential, including in the creation of all the tropes of Islamism that are so deadly today.

This can no longer be denied, and it has a huge impact on whether peace is possible or not, and who is responsible (namely the devolution of Palestinian society into a grotesque death-cult) if peace cannot be achieved.


arthur m. eckstein - 7/12/2010

The people on that ship were sailing knowingly into a war zone; they were attempting to break the blockade of Gaza and turn it into a port of embarkation for weapons; they were armed and trained, not "peace activists"; if they'd wanted to give goods to the Gazans they could've landed at Ashdod; 7 other ships were boarded and detained peacefully and their goods eventually transhipped to Gaza after inspection; they attacked the soldiers who tried to board the ship, including with guns.

As usual, Omar doesn't have his facts straight.


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/12/2010

Omar,

You are not reading what I write. The Balkan countries, Bulgaria, Greece or Serbia were the “rebirth” of ancient countries of the same names, like Israel.

There had been no Greece for 2000 years.

Bulgaria which was reborn a slavonic country had in the Middle ages been for 1000 years a christian Turkish country. After that she became a Moslem Turkish country for 500 years.

The secession of Bulgaria or Greece is comparable to the secession of Israel.

At the point they were reborn they had been history for long centuries. The people living there were Moslems, like in Palestine. The indigenous people in perpetual residence had become Moslems. They were “Turkey proper” not less then Palestine was Palestine proper.

What they did to the Moslems was incomparably more brutal than what the Jews did to the Palestinians. They hated the Moslems for being Moslems and enjoyed slaughtering them. That is worse than being forced out of your home. Far worse.

Turkey in 1920 was not more or less advanced than her Arab provinces. Today she is.

That is because in 1924 Ataturk made peace and concentrated his energies on development. By 2010 Turkey has 90 years of peace and development.

Except in the Kurdish provinces. These being in the Middle East keep on fighting for something. There is always one reason or another.

Consequence: they are the least developed parts of the country.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/12/2010

The man, the Prof that is, is truly incorrigible and unedicationableI; despite frequent rebuttals with concrete facts and figures here at HNN he repeatedly attempts to establish a semblance of legality, through legal land sales, for Israel occupation of Palestine in 1948 by reverting from time to time to such contentions as the following:
" it is that the Palestinians willingly sold land at high prices to people, then they attacked and tried to exterminate the people they had voluntarily sold that land to (in the 1930s, 91% of sellers were local Arab small-holders by the way), "
(Re: A Futile and Meaningless Search !! (#143536)
by arthur m. eckstein on July 10, 2010 at 11:50 PM )

The clear intended implication here is of a legitimate and legal land ownership transfer through legal buy and sell transactions.
Interestingly his contentions are and remain meaningless and inconsequential in that he always deliberately fails to say HOW MUCH LAND was sold and bought preferring to dwell on such trivia as “willingly sold land at high prices “ and “, 91% of sellers were local Arab small-holders …".
However, patently, the repetition of such claims with the trivia brought in to lend it credibility is meant to create the impression that Jews residing in Palestine, i.e. the Israel to be, bought, from Palestinians who sold them , enough land to warrant dominating it politically
His deliberate omission of HOW MUCH LAND in Palestine was Jewish owned, while presenting such trivia as the ones noted above including the magic figure/percentage of 91% only serves, with the careful reader, to stress the utter vacuity and worthlessness of his statements, WHILE DELIBERATELY insinuating and implying, to the careless reader, a massive legal land transfer process.
To establish the facts about the matter and demonstrate the vacuity of the Professors insinuations and deceptive implications I post hereunder unassailable land ownership figures in Palestine, both as a percentage and in dunums ( 1 dunum=1000Sq M) derived from official British sources:
The following table shows the land ownership of Palestine by district:
Land ownership of Palestine by district as of 1945
District % Arab owned % Jewish owned % Public and other
Acre 87% 3% 10%
Beersheba 15% <1% 85%
Beisan 44% 34% 22%
Gaza 75% 4% 21%
Haifa 42% 35% 23%
Hebron 96% <1% 4%
Jaffa 46% 39% 14%
Jenin 84% <1% 16%
Nazareth 52% 28% 20%
Ramallah 99% <1% 1%
Ramle 77% 14% 9%
Safad 68% 18% 14%
Tiberias 51% 38% 11%
Tulkarm 78% 17% 5%
Data from the
Land Ownership of Palestine

[edit] Land ownership by type
The land owned privately and collectively by Arabs and Jews can be classified as urban, rural built-on, cultivable (farmed), and uncultivable. The following chart shows the ownership by Arabs and Jews in each of the categories.
Land ownership of Palestine (in dunums) as of April 1st, 1943
Category of land Arab ownership Jewish ownership Total Land
Urban 76,662 70,111 146,773
Rural built-on 36,851 42,330 79,181
Cereal (taxable) 5,503,183 814,102 6,317,285
Cereal (not taxable) 900,294 51,049 951,343
Plantation 1,079,788 95,514 1,175,302
Citrus 145,572 141,188 286,760
Banana 2,300 1,430 3,730
Total 7,744,650 1,215,724 8,940,374
The above does not include uncultivable lands owned by both parties. Data is from Survey of Palestine.[4]


References
1. ^ Shaw J.V.W., A Survey of Palestine : Prepared in December, 1945 and January, 1946 for the Information of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, Vol.1, Institute for Palestine Studies 1991, pp 566.



omar ibrahim baker - 7/12/2010

Fahrettin
Details abound and you cannot draw wide ranging conclusions from isolated incidents and episodes here and there.

You seem to have missed my point!
My point was: at the eclipse of the Ottoman Empire GREECE, for example, substantially reverted to its indigenous population the GREEKS while TURKEY proper, as distinct geographically and nationalistically from the Ottoman Empire, was neither occupied nor colonized by ALIENS from, say, Poland, the USA, Germany and Lithuania etc etc as Palestine was/is.

In this context your original contention of an analogy, a parallelism of events and results therefrom, from which to draw conclusions and proffer advice is untenable, baseless and irrelevant because of the wide discrepancy in substance between the two cases.
Regards


omar ibrahim baker - 7/12/2010



A case in point about the effect of the mental devastation that Zionism inflictson on its aherents relates to the case of the Gaza flotilla.
Witness what the Israeli ambassador in DC had to say :
" The mob that assaulted Israeli special forces on the deck of the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara on Monday was not motivated by peace. "
(The NY TIMES;An Assault, Cloaked in Peace By MICHAEL B. OREN, Published: June 2, 2010)
So it is the mob that has assaulted the troops and not the troops which is meant to say and convey the impression that: it was the "mobs" who boarded an Israeli ship and attacked its passengers who happened to be paratroopers from Israel's regular army!
Such a public declaration which runs contrary to worldwide known, witnessed and established facts, shamelessly made by an ambassador, no less, calls for a careful scrutiny of the mental and psychological makeup its source and the motives behind it !
The man is sane enough so no more on the mental.
The psychology, though, is another thing: it is Zionist based and Jewish inspired which means that:
a- “the chosen people” enjoys a special dispensation to do whatever is necessary to attain its objectives
b-once that necessity is met the resulting act itself is necessarily and by definition, being Zionist inspired and Zionist serving, a good and blameless thing to the uninitiated then :actually praise worthy to the committed,
c-since, as is often the case, the facts of the matter surrounding the act run against public general perception the sequence of events and /or their intrinsic actuality could /should be rearranged or reversed to make the act more palatable then make it laudable.
SO should that lead to outright falsification; so be it; runs Zionist ideology!
What we have here in the Israeli ambassador’s own words above is not a mere reinterpretation of facts but an actual case of outright falsification.
For the motives behind such upside down overturning of facts that, in an ever smaller and more knowledgeable world, is often leading to outright fabrication and blatant falsification: the motive is no longer to deceive!
It is to force on the public a certain perception of events in which the” perception” of the facts trumps the authenticity /the actuality of these same “facts”
That is FACTS, per se, are not important it is their perception that is
And should the need arise FACTS can be turned upside down, neglected, distorted, reversed, or simply made up to serve the “chosen people” according to his political /spiritual alma matter: Zionism


omar ibrahim baker - 7/12/2010

....any more than the Jews needed Hitler to hate Nazism or, conversely, needed Nazism to hate Hitler.
In a more serious vein:
Unfortunately, here, we are in the realm where some people do need to be taught that: 1+1=2
Going by the Prof's rationale(!!) one would conclude that except for Nazism the Palestinians would have been in love with Jews and Zionists...
that they had planned and implemented the worst racially driven colonialist conquest of modern time against the Palestinians, pales, according to the Prof, in comparison with the influence Hitler/Nazism exerted over them!
Is it possible that the Prof and ilk do, genuinely and sincerely, believe that?
I doubt it ! They cannot, possibly, be that moronically blind!
That they go on expounding that ultra ridiculous contention that defies even infantile logic is , however, worthy of further consideration.
I contend it is an innate malady that springs, aside from their obvious PR driven disinformation and fabrication campaign, from internal inherent more complex reasons:
-One would be a measure of self righteousness and self pity that truly blinds them, some of them at least, to the fact that colonialism by aliens of a certain land is bound to incite resentment, hate and resistance, which is really only 1+1=2
-Another would be a cultural heritage that has devastatingly deformed their minds and spirits beyond any rational thinking and beyond any rudimentary sense of morality as universally perceived
Racism, the belief in one’s singularity and uniqueness, fosters that all prevailing malady from which they all seem to suffer: their exceptionalism!
In a way with a self righteous Israel and with Professors , no less, advancing such arguments the whole world, not only the Arabs, is actually confronted, and will ultimately have to deal, with the phenomenon of the self blinded and the mentally and morally deformed beyond universal perception of same !!


james joseph butler - 7/11/2010

"It's all Nazi-influenced, Omar."

Art the Arabs didn't need Hitler to hate the Jews anymore than the Indians needed Andrew Jackson to hate whites.


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/11/2010

Correct: The south of Greece had a 30 % Moslem minority. The North had a majority.


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/11/2010

Omar

Greece had taken large Slavonic, Turkic and Albanian immigration after the 4th century. The south of Greece had a 30 % Moslem majoriyt at the point where Greece became independent in 1829. These people were murderd down to the last baby.

The North of Greece had a Moslem population majority in 1911 when it was invaded by Greece. Repeat: northern Greece was longer Turkish than Anatolia!

They were slaughtered and forced out with a brutality you have never seen in Palestine. That is where Atatuk came from.

Half of the population of Crete was Moslem in 1840, not a single person of that remains on Crete.

The famous Greek novelist Nikos Kazantsakis writes proud "the sea was red with the blood of slain Turks".

It was all much worse that you can imagine in Palestine.

There are 30 million people in Turkey whos eancestors were forced out of their homes in Europe because the Christians of Europe wanted a Europe without Moslems.

We prefer peace to endless fighting and let bygones be bygones. that is why people like you believe what you see is the indigenious population beling liberated.


arthur m. eckstein - 7/11/2010

No, Omar--the Islamism of Hamas and the rest of your friends is an Islam dreadfully contaminated in the most intellectually colonized way by Nazism and fascism.

You are pathetically reduced to denying my facts, saying you don't know whether I'm telling the truth about these particulars or not. That's just a shifty mode of denial. Well, the fact is that no review of Mahlmann and Cuppers, of Kuentzel, no review of Herf, denies any of those facts. Herf found THREE THOUSAND PAGES of Husseini's anti-semitic rants from Nazi Berlin in the National Archives in Washington, transcribed by the U.S. embassy in Cairo during 1941-45. Three thousand pages, Omar!! Husseini never disavowed them; on the contrary, having escaped from Europe, as Palestinian leader in the late 1940s and 1950s he repeated them. Al-Banna recognized this--and approved them too.

Three thousand pages of anti-semitic rants is not the product of an alliance of convenience, Omar. Preventing Jewish children from escaping the Holocaust is not the product of an alliance of convenience. That's a union of hearts.

And thus the "resistance" movements of the Palestinians are, and always have been, profoundly contaminated by that union. Because there at the fountainhead stands Husseini, the Palestinian national hero, the "consensus leader of the Palestinians" (to quote Edward Said again)--the unrepentent and genocidal Nazi. The impact appears on the one hand in the explanation of Israeli success against huge odds, and Arab failure, via the Magic Jews Who Control the World. That was the Nazi explanation too--not their own mistakes. And on the other hand it appears of course in the genocidal message of wholesale and intentional murder of civilians, as in the Second Intifada. That was the Nazi policy towards Jews. It's all Nazi-influenced, Omar. (Some of this ultra-violence does derive from the rhetorical emphasis on various traditional anti-semitic statements in the Koran and Hadith as well, but many scholars argue this is a distortion of the Islamic tradition in and of itself.)

In short, though you don't know it and will now deny it, your ideas are infected with the worst sort of European cultural colonialism, that's the ideology and policies you are dishing out, and it's the absolute worst of Europe to boot. Congratulations!

Professional scholars over the past five years have now explored deeply just how this perversion came about.

I'd urge you to read the books I mention but I know you won't read actual scholarship.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/11/2010

Prof
I do not know how correct the particulars you mention are.

However:The cardinal points here are two:
1-Hajj Amin's overture to Germany in search of a powerful ally in the fight against the Jewish/Zionist/Imperialist alliance was patently a question of putting up with a lesser evil to confront the major enemy and far greater and pernicious evil who threatened his homeland :Zionism.
It was a clear cut case of a search for powerful friends and allies, which Germany was .
NOT unlike Israel/Apartheid South Africa relations and tacit alliance with the notable identity determining DIFFERENCE of: whereas the former is a case of needs imposed relations the latter is a clear and unmistakable case of innate cultural and doctrinaire affinity and kinship between Zionism and Apartheid white supremacy racism.

2-Islam as the major cultural formative force of Arabism and Islamism categorically condemns and unconditionally rejects any and all forms of colour, ethnicity or nationality based discrimination or hierarchal classification of human beings as Fascism/Nazism upholds and advocates.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/10/2010

Fahrettin
Your historical analogy is way off the case of the Zionist conquest and colonization of Palestine and as such is hardly relevant or remotely applicable.
For, say, Greece to cede away from the Ottoman Empire and revert to the Greek people, its indigenous population in perpetual residence in their homeland, is hardly comparable to part of Turkey proper being invaded by aliens who dislocate and dispossess Turks from their own homeland and supplant them with aliens.
I do hope you can see the difference!


arthur m. eckstein - 7/10/2010

Mr. Butler: Some Zionists worked briefly with Nazis to get Jews out of the danger they faced in Germany.

Omar: That pathetic attempt to save some people from extremination was profoundly the opposite of Amin al-Huesseini the Mufti of Jerusalem working three years for Himmler the head of the SS in his extermination program, helping organize SS Divisions of Muslims that committed terrible atrocities in the Balkans, and making sure that Jewish children died in the Holocaust. Moreover, Husseini never repented of what he'd done; his writings in the 1950s were as genocidal as his radio broadcasts in 1944 ("Kill the Jews whever you find them. This pleases God, history and religion"); and yet from 1946 until the mid-1950s this man Husseini was (to quote Edward Said) "the consensus leader of the Palestinians". "The consensus leader!" Can you imagine? You, Omar, are living with the result.

As Hassan al Banna the founder of the Muslim brotherhood (ancestor of Hamas) said in the late 1940s: "Germany and Hitler are gone but Amin Al-Husseini will continue the struggle.”

Those are the facts about the Nazi-Palestinian connection. It wasn't an alliance of convenience. It was a union of hearts. These facts have been revealed--and the Palestinian leadership in this period has been revealed in all its anti-semitic psychosis--in the groundbreaking books by Mahlmann, Kuentzel, and Herf. Those are books we can be sure Omar will never read.

As for Omar's version of history in the Holy Land: a rather different way of putting it is that the Palestinians willingly sold land at high prices to people, then they attacked and tried to exterminate the people they had voluntarily sold that land to (in the 1930s, 91% of sellers were local Arab small-holders by the way), the rest of the Arab and Muslim world followed their lead and ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of innocent Jewish people, but since the Palestinians (and the Arabs) amazingly lost in their war 1947-1948 against a tiny group of Infidels, they now ceaselessly complain that they are victims. They are victims of their own bad judgment, bad leadership, and vicious anti-semitism. But since they can never ever ever admit responsibility for any of their own conduct, they are stuck blaming Magic Jews Who Control the World--a concept they picked up from the Nazis.

Fahrettin is correct both on history and what the Palestinians would do if they had good leadership.


james joseph butler - 7/10/2010

Fahrettin, the IRA consorted with the Germans during WWI. Your idea that the Palestinians used "a Nazi influenced response" to attack Israel is like saying the Confederacy used a British influenced response to attack Lincoln and the Union.

Omar this is all semantics at a certain point, how were the Fascists different from the Baathists in Italy and Iraq? Mussolini and Saddam were both bullies and dictators. The idea that one ethnicity or race is more or less prone to despotism and the politics of race strikes me as vaguely Zionistic.


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/10/2010

Omar

exactly that happened in what was once European Turkey. Take a look at the map of the world in 1911.

We made peace.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/10/2010

The bare historical facts of the matter are:
Faced with an omnipotent unholy Zionist/Jewish/Imperialist (GB/UK, USA, France etc and, to a lesser extent, Soviet) alliance the Palestinian national liberation movement was in dire need of a powerful friend and, if possible, ally to confront the Zionist/Imperialist colonialist onslaught on Palestine.
AS far as we are concerned :It was simply a question of having as many friends, or non enemies, as possible while involved in a destiny making battle with the most evil alliance of modern times : the Zionist/Imperialist alliance.
The Palestinian and Arab quest for an ally among the then major powers was directed at Germany who happened to be Nazi dominated and ruled at the time.
Had it been then still Kaiser ruled and anti Zionist an alliance with it would have been as eagerly sought.
NOT an unheard of set up with many, if not all, parties embroiled in a major conflict.

That, however, in no way reflects or implies any innate or acquired affinity for , or even moderate receptivity of, Fascism/Nazism by the Arabs and/or Moslems!
As a matter of cultural and historical fact, both old and contemporary, I contend that Arabs and Moslems are innately more anti Fascist/anti Nazi and much less, culturally/religiously, disposed to accept Fascism/ Nazism than were, and still are to a certain degree, Christian Europeans and Americans.

Modern Arab history had only one mentionable quasi or semi fascist Party: The Syrian Nationalist Party of Anton Saadeh
It never achieved any widespread acceptance with Syrian (Arab) masses and only came to play a non trifle political role in Lebanon.
To ensure its survival and non rejection by Arab masses and Arab intelligentsia It did not take it long to recant its fascist tendencies ; which it did.
Culturally, ie principally religiously with Islam being the major cultural formative force, any sort of colour, ethnicity or nationalism based discrimination or hierarchal classification of humans is not only frowned upon but is fundamentally and categorically rejected in and by Islam.

The Arabs, and of course the Palestinians, were NOT unaware where they stood in Nazi racist classification, but that was a bitter pill to swallow in their search for allies for better to confront their arch cultural cum nationalist enemy: world Jewry and its political arm Zionism.
Isolated events, or even political overtures by leading Arabs, such as Hajj Amin Al Husseini's to Germany, serve only to prove my point: it was a power search issue that accommodated a lesser evil to confront the arch evil Zionism.

I will NOT spell out and enumerate the many historical parallels in Western (European/American) history and culture for that will imply holding them as the standard by which to appraise others’ deeds: they certainly never were and are far from being now


james joseph butler - 7/10/2010

Google Nazis and Zionists and see what you get. It's not as obvious as the contemporaneous Arab Nazi connection but none the less the facts for both factions point to towards the most short sighted and self serving of alliances. It's not terribly different from what America and any number of imperial powers have chosen to do in the pursuit of victory.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/10/2010

" ......to make deals for mutual advantage."
What kind of deal would you, Mr Fahrettin,make with him who forces his way into your own home, evicts most of your family from it, dipossesses you of your legitimate properties theren in, subjugates those of your family who stay put, denies you the right to return to your home which he makes wide open to receive his own friends.
Pray advise what kind of deal will you Fahrettin make with him!


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/9/2010

Omar

I live in Germany and can tell you a thing or two about Nazis. They are one of the few groups I hate.

What I can say is that a non Nazi respone to the Jews in the Middle East would not have caused so much human suffering on both sides.

The Nazi influenced response treats Jews as monsters to fight forever instead of our fellow human begings to make deals for mutual advantage.

Civilization lives from deals for mutual advantage.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/8/2010

Fahrettin
It is utterly unwise, and quite often counterproductive, to generalize, as you do above.
Usually you have better things to say!


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/8/2010

Omar,

Nazis exist.

They hate Jews and Moslems.

Jews are intelligent enough to hate them back.

Moslems are not.


omar ibrahim baker - 7/8/2010

As with other pro Zionist pundits Pipes keeps searching for mass “convincing” reasons why the Arabs in particular and the Moslems in general do resent, oppose and hate Zionism.
However the answers they hope for, and that they adroitly manipulate other reasons to conveyfor it to better serve their, the searchers', objectives, should meet a basic requirement (a) and preferably include a basic ingredient (b).
That is, for the answer(s) to serve their ulterior purposes it should fall within that grey area in universal consciousness that encompass what has come to be "universally” resented and resisted, particularly in their prime hunting field: the Western world.
For the “reasons” to be within that area and better serve their purposes
-the (a) must fall in the realm of those universally resented dogmas such as Fascism, Nazism, when addressing a LIBERAL audience, Imperialism, when addressing a ‘LEFTIST” audience, and, lately, Islamism, Jihadism when addressing a general Western audience.
-the(b) is ,optimally, attained if the basic ingredient is the magic formula of “anti Semtism” that has come to be a result of a massive brain washing campaign synonymous with “anti Zionism” despite the fundamental difference in meaning and substance between the two antis!
When it comes to the Arabs their, the researcher’s , search PR cum disinformation “mission” is much more pressing, urgent and crucial than in anywhere else in the world for two outstanding reasons:
1-Zionism’s, the alter ego of conservative Judaism, present ongoing major battle is in Arab Palestine
2-It is specifically with the Arabs and in Palestine where, as every objective observer can see for himself,.recourse to either (a) or (b) is neither needed nor, reasonably, possible; except of course with Pipes and ilk!
For it is in Palestine of all places in the world and with the Arabs of all nations that anti Zionism, i.e. the virulent hatred of and opposition to everything that Zionism stands for , is the only possible, the inevitable, outcome having come face to face with this pernicious racist doctrine that advocated and implement the dislocation, dispossession, disfranchisement and subjugation of an indigenous people from his and in his homeland then supplanting them with aliens chosen according to strict racial/racist criteria.
No real need ever existed for the Palestinians, the Arabs and Moslems in general to be, nor were they ever meaningfully, prodded into their heartfelt anti Zionism by Nazism to become and to be anti Zionist: having had their own valid and legitimate reasons for that after encountering and enduring Zionism at first hand in Palestine!
Pipes with semantic acrobatics and a hardly concealed contempt for his readers in this article is desperately searching for ulterior, farfetched reasons for what is, by any standard, only natural and expectable.
To bring the thing closer to his comprehension: need any body go into pseudo scholastic endeavors to find out why the Jews hate Nazism??


Fahrettin Tahir - 7/5/2010

Islamists do not need targeted Nazi propaganda.

In Turkey they have been reading Hitler's Mein Kampf, which broke sales records, and have adopted the views presented there.

The main foreign policy commentator in the newspaper Yeni Safak, the half official newspaper of the governing AKP wrote recently that the Israeli Navy operating from its bases in Viet Nam sank the South Korean ship Cheonon to start a war between China and the West.

Even Hitler could not have thought that up.