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Feb 9, 2005 8:30 am

There has been a lot of discussion at L&P about a wide variety of subjects, and keeping up with it all is virtually impossible. I did note however that Bill Marina made the following comment in his Liberty and Power Group blog post,"Reflections on Homosexual Behaviors":

Wow, certainly a lot of blogging of late here at the old Liberty and Power Blog, mainly about Ayn Rand and then homosexuality ... If Blogs had meta tags like web sites, and if the name of the Blog was determined by the content, our ISP might suggest ours be called something like the"HomoRandian" Blog. Or, did La Rand make the ultimate pronunciamiento on that as well?

Well, Bill, I'm absolutely certain that there are a few HomoRandians on board here, but let's not forget that the Ol' Girl just celebrated her Centenary, and even the non-HomoRandians and the non-Randians here and everywhere—from the NY Times to the Chicago Tribune to the Philadelphia Inquirer—have focused on this once-in-a-hundred years marker. So cut us a little slack.

But since you've asked, as a matter of fact, La Rand did make the ultimate pronunciamiento on homosexuality; she thought it was"immoral" and"disgusting," and it prompted Moi to write a monograph about it: Ayn Rand, Homosexuality, and Human Liberation. Why, that might make a fine founding document for! I better go reserve that domain name right now... just so I can redirect the URL to

Cross-posted at Not a Blog.

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William Marina - 2/9/2005

Where do I "insinuate" in your mind that violence against homosexuals is legitimate?
In E&E I point out that Postive Law, Legalism in China, makes great promises of equality, which turn out to be conditioned by State powe, and cite examples with women's rights in Rome.
This will be the last instance in which I bother to attempt to communicate with you because you really don't want to discuss anything but rather harangue trying to score debate points distorting much of what I wrote to suit your own attack mode.
Bill Marina

Jason Kuznicki - 2/9/2005

Don't think you can weasel your way out so easily. You were NOT merely analyzing someone else's position when you wrote your original post.

You stated, and I quote, "no God(s) have ever communicated with me on the subject, and I reject State pronouncements on the question... That leaves us with studying Nature for some clues about such behavior.

I believe one does not have to look very far in Nature, among a number of species, to observe what appear to be homosexual behaviors."

In context, your later statements can only be taken as personal beliefs, including your claim that violence against homosexuals is "natural" (perhaps it's even admirable, akin to John Galt for crying out loud) and that women's political participation is a sign of societal decay.

If we are not to learn from the state or from God, but only to learn from nature--and if these are the lessons that nature teaches--then would you be in favor of beating homosexuals? You may disavow this position, but it's one clear implication of your original post.

Personally, I prefer to learn from HUMAN nature, which teaches that many different modes of life can all coexist peacefully. I find it preposterous to dwell on animal examples when we are endowed with thinking minds that so easily do so much better.

Of course, you do have a right to say all these things. But I also have a right to tell you that I find your insinuations vile, offensive, and--worst of all--based on breathtakingly poor evidence.

William Marina - 2/9/2005

Dear Chris,
I always appreciate your wit!
I imagined the Great Lady (as masculine as she sometimes appeared) would have made a comment on same.
My own approach was to use Nature/Ethology to attempt to demonstrate that some kinds of behaviors among the same sex in various species do appear to be related to some kind of homosexuality. The bachelor lions with low to no testosterone no longer seemed interested in sex with females.
I also was trying a bit of jest in the opening of my piece, but I am coming to realize that some, Justin R. appears the extreme, are not much into that.To use the word "blatant" to describe something is not necessarioy to condemn it. Again, JR's discussion of his preference in sexual positions is, I think, rather blatant, and not something I would discuss on the Internet.
I would condemn nothing which appears so universal across Nature!
Trying to understand why it is attacked by so many appears to some at our Blog to be condemning it.
Bill Marina

Aeon J. Skoble - 2/9/2005

Hey, it's a group blog. Don't read the entries you aren't interested in.