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Yo, Adrian . . . By Which I Mean -- Thank God It's Over!
by Cliopatria
And now for the event you were all waiting for in this hyper-scripted Valentine to that for which Democrats want America to think they stand: John Kerry’s address. That first sentence was only partially cynical. Of course conventions are about packaging. And I am astounded by the folks who get shocked about the fact that a party convention is (gasp!) partisan, that a political convention is (gasp!) political. And I do believe that what we have seen is a side of the Democratic Party, a good and noble side. But like all parties, we have division. It is not hypocritical to try to put the best face possible on the way in which a party sells itself. People are probably a bit more than disingenuous when they argue that this is not all there is to the Democratic Party. Well, of course not. And what we will see next month in New York is not going to be the full picture of the Republican Party. To quote one of the favored (and still most withering) insults on the elementary school playgrounds, DUH!
There were lots and lots and lots more speeches today. I was very happy to have flipped on the tv when I came home for a late lunch in time to see John Lewis speak. John Lewis is one of my favorite public figures, largely because of his role in the Civil Rights Movement – not surprisingly he plays a starring role in my book on the Freedom Rides – but also because he is a man of unsurpassed integrity. He is not the sort of speaker who will ever get a prime time role, but he is a very good man, and each time I have met him he has been gracious and supportive. In 1996, I believe, The New Republic had a cover story feature on him with the title “The Last Integrationist” that is very much worth tracking down. His speech today was nothing spectacular, but it made me smile to see and hear him on stage. John Lewis is one of my heroes. If you know anything about the Freedom Rides or the Selma to Montgomery March, he ought to be one of yours as well.
Meanwhile, if I promise not to say any more mean things to folks on the comment boards, and if I promise not to eat more than five hot dogs in one sitting again (in the next week) can we cross ideological lines and find a way to ban two things: Awful, bombastic cover bands doing songs whose popularity was inexplicable even back in the day; And convention delegates dancing arhythmically to those songs? I am as much of a civil libertarian as the next jaded bastard writing a blog, but at some point, in the name of all things sacred, this has got to stop. Because, there are no red states and blue states, there are just people, Americans who never want to see middle-aged men dancing to a rendition of “Celebration” ever, ever again. I thank you for your support.
And while I am being cantankerous: Does it make me a bad person if I wonder why on earth being related to a candidate for the Presidency makes one qualified to speak in a prime-time slot at the convention? This, and children anywhere near the stage, have quickly become two of the things that make me want to pull an Oedipus (not the unseemly mother-father business, just the eye plucking part). More parenthetical asides while wondering just how far to push this line of inquiry: (To be clear, I positively love families, children, and my eyes. I’m just sayin’ is all . . .). (The second daughter gave a better speech, though no families actually speak to one another in the way that she described; but she looks less like her father than the first daughter. For a young woman, that is a good thing.)
I thought the Kerry video was remarkably effective, maybe because Morgan Freeman was the narrator, and so I kept thinking of Red in the Shawshank Redemption, who both helped fuel (he was, after all, a man who could get things) and who drew from Andy Dufresne’s hard-learned lessons that hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. But also because of this dirty little secret that we all forget about in our haste to bury or praise our presidential candidates: I think that John Kerry is a good, noble, heroic, patriotic man. I admire him in a way that I have not admired a major party nominee since, well, probably since George H. W. Bush, but I was too much of a dimly ideological undergraduate to realize that I admired him. As a consequence, contemporaneously, I admire Kerry more. He is a good man. And I know I’ve said this a lot, even in the last couple of days. But are we are so cynical about our politicians that we sometimes forget about their humanity? I profoundly disagree with so much of what George Bush says. But I have no doubt that he a good man who cares about and loves America. Al Gore? Bob Dole? Michael Dukakis? Walter Mondale? These are good men. They are men who served and loved this country. I think we too easily forget this in our zeal to support our side, our team. And I admire John Kerry.
Which brings us to the whole military service question, so easy to mock among those who need something to mock (and for the sake of full disclosure, I made a bit of a crack on that last night): I find it interesting that suddenly it is all the rave among conservatives and Republicans to proclaim, with no irony attendant, that Kerry’s war service is now irrelevant. Funny, that was not the case in 1996, when we heard details about Bob Dole’s service in World War II and his subsequent heroic recovery. And of course to my mind it was legitimate then. Bob Dole was, is, a hero. But by those same standards, so is John Kerry, and maybe a more heroic one at that. Despite all of the rationalizations from the left and from the right about how biography ought not to matter, I might shock and awe folks by saying that yes, who a man is may well be relevant to who they are. It strikes me as odd that Bob Dole’s war record was germane then, but that John Kerry’s, in a time of war, is not germane now. Especially when the current administration has been more than willing to try to play the patriotism card.
I thought that the use of the veterans who served with Kerry was profoundly effective. Not only was it legitimate, but it was politically brilliant. Veterans will support Kerry in a way that they did not support Gore (odd, since Gore actually served in Vietnam too). I would suspect that similar things will happen among active troops. Will military folks suddenly vote Democrat? Probably not. But the differences between the last election and this one will be marked. The fact that those who served with Kerry lined up for him tonight will be more powerful than many think.
Of course Max Cleland was a trump card. His speech, in many ways pedestrian, was still remarkably effective. His connections to Kerry are both personal and political. And the way that the GOP treated him in 2000 (apparently winning really is, or at least was, everything) was among the most loathsome things I have seen in American politics. The Republican candidate, with the backing of the national GOP, impugned this man’s patriotism. And they did so in explicit terms. But tonight he was about as effective a presenter of Kerry as can be imagined in the context. The Republicans have lots on which they will stand. I would guess that even subtle intimations about the patriotism of the Democrats should fall on deaf ears. And this is why everyone is talking about the playing up of the Kerry biography. Because it is a damned powerful biography.
Kerry is not Clinton. For the Democrats this is a demonstrably good thing. There is no easy personal target area against Kerry. And Bush is not Dole. Nor is he his daddy. Did the President serve? Yes. And he served well. But there is the question of how George Bush jumped to the front of the line for the particular duty he served – the National Guard is noble and important. But it is not active duty. And tens of thousands of young men wanted to be in the National Guard. Why George Bush when john Kerry was volunteering for actual service? Further, there is a $10,000 offer out there for anyone who can simply document that George W. Bush served when he was apparently not exactly serving. I’ve yet to see $10,000 go unclaimed in America. John Kerry did not have that problem. Upon graduating from college, John Kerry enlisted, and then he took a duty that most people avoided. So does Kerry’s service mean everything? No, no more than George McGovern’s (compare his war record with Nixon’s) or Jimmy Carter’s (compare his war record with Reagan’s). But it sure as hell means something if patriotism is the question on the table. One cannot have it both ways. If we want to compare their records when Kerry opposed the war (a war in which he had served, been wounded – thrice – and won major medals – twice) in the 1970s, then let’s compare their lives and accomplishments year-by-year. A chronological comparison surely favors one candidate. I’ll let you decide which.
But in the end, these questions aside, what about Kerry’s speech? I was a bit disappointed. I still thought it was good. And maybe it was his profuse and distracting chin-sweat that helped turn me off (By now shouldn’t a guy with an enormous, Leno-esque, chin realize that sweat gathers in the fold of that chin in the same way that water gathers in Appalachian Valleys?). I still thought that he displayed a level of comfort that I had rarely seen him display. He is obviously an overwhelmingly a better speaker than George W. Bush or Al Gore. But he played to the base a bit much. Last night, John Edwards ought to have made the obvious attacks against the administration, and Kerry ought to have come forward with the positive message tonight. Kerry ought to have been more clear on destroying terrorists, which is a policy he clearly supports. But if the question comes down to articulating a message, I am more than happy with the side I am on. 9/11 changed a great deal. Among the things that it changed is the foolish idea that the Republicans are tougher on national security than the Democrats. John Kerry did nothing to disprove that he can deal with the most important foreign policy matters of our time. At the same time, he also articulated a conception of a domestic front that Democrats, and we believe many others, believe in as well.
All of that said, “Help is On The Way” is pretty tepid as a campaign slogan (and since both Edwards and Kerry used it to rally the crowd in the last two nights, I have to assume that it is a campaign slogan). “Help is on the way may” be a true statement, but that does not mean it is going to win a national election any more than the true statement “Derek is going to remove his undies,” is the way for the Democrats to win Texas. That said, for $15 a plate . . .
Oh I know. Whitewater was about "land flips" and looting the treasury. It was just one act of the entire S&L debacle that both political parties wanted to sweep under the rug. Although four of the "Keating five" were Democrats.
Robert Wisler said that Clinton was quilty of perjury regarding questions he "should never have been asked." Clinton signed the bill into law that gave trial judges such discretion in civil discovery. Irony, no?
Derek Charles Catsam -
8/5/2004
My whole point with the spelling comment is that I think it is the pettiest criticism of all. And inevitably when someone corrects someone's spelling or grammar it means two things: they are out of ideas, and the karma police are going to get them. You corrected Bob's spelling, and in so doing made your own spelling error. It is the hypocrisy that warrants being pointed out.
As for kinder gentler, I have been kinder and gentler here. When have i been harsh? But you did steal someone else's words. it si intellectual theft. And then rather than simply admit you made a mistake and let it slide, you went on the attack. Then Robert saw the absurdity of that and came on to the case. I have hardly been the one who has been out of line here. I suspect that anyone reading this far would have to agree. On this one, it is simply not everybody else's fault.
dc
Bill Heuisler -
8/4/2004
Mr. Jones,
Whitewater was not about Paula Jones. Whitewater alleged Arkansas Governor Clinton's violations of law in dealings with both Whitewater and Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan. Allegations were made about the Clintons' Whitewater investments as listed on income taxes, possible conflicts of interest with business partner McDougal because of the state-regulated S&L owned by McDougal et al that failed. Convicted were former Governor, Jim Guy Tucker, Associate Attorney General Web Hubbell, Municipal Judge, Hale, business partner McDougal and over a dozen others.
Hardly "nothing" as stated elsewhere by a professor who should know better.
Bill Heuisler
Grant W Jones -
8/4/2004
The sad truth is that Jones v. Clinton is not unique in this regard. The courts have been allowing plantiffs to ransack the private lives of defendants.
Thanks, Derek.
Bill,
First: Obviously I was only stating that Starr found nothing to incriminate Clinton in the Whitewater scandal. Since Clinton was Starr's 'big fish' he had to find something on him. Starr went into an area that had nothing to do with his initial investigation, and asked questions that had nothing to do with his initial investigation.
And, yes, I know what purloined means; as in "Bill Heuisler purloined Rich Lowry's comments, and used them as his own."
Second: Yes, I am aware that a bastard is a fatherless child. As Derek pointed out, it was not intended, as is often the case, as a literal interpretation. Just as when I call some one a jackass, I am not calling them a donkey.
Bill Heuisler -
8/4/2004
Derek,
Have I ever called you a bastard? Better question, would you or I ever dream of calling a stranger such a thing?
Your implication that I'm a thief is also out of line.
Two points: Whitewater was not about sex. The more than 16 felony convictions were for fraud, lying under oath and other criminal charges I don't recall.
As to words, your "loathsome" comment said, "And they did so in explicit terms." referring to the Chambliss ad and the supposed questioning of Cleland's patriotism. No, Derek, they did not question his patriotism in any terms - and certainly not explicitly. In fact, if you had read my original comment carefully, you'd have noticed I made that point quite clearly.
Lastly, how would you have responded to the thieving bastard comment? you are without a doubt the sloppiest speller on HNN so your comment comes over as, at very least, gratuitously petty. I'm doing my level best to live up to that new attitude you wrote about. Are you?
Bill
Derek Charles Catsam -
8/4/2004
Bill --
So suddenly when it suits you, you are both a literalist (as if the word "bastard" in this day and age regularly refers to someone who is a fatherless child; I suppose then you think that Bob literally has the mouth of an alligator too, since you wrote it, or does the literalism flow one way. of course in the phrase "thieving bastard" i doubt highly that Bob's emphasis as a matter of his point was the word "bastard," but no matter.
But more significant, you think that government and taxpayer funds for a special prosecutor ought to be used to pursue criminal complaints that are not part of government in any substantial way? So much for your limited government, small expenditures, small taxes views. Nice to see you'll give up on what you believe in so easily when it suits partisanship. Clinton was found guilty of nothing, nada, zero with re: Whitewater and Rose law firm and thus his sex life ought not to have come into the picture. That it did reveals at least as much about those going after him as it does him.
(PS, since you are suddenly the stickler for spelling, and since you are not British, isn't the word spelled "judgment"? This is what happens when one bases their criticism of another's post on a typo, I guess -- you'd best damned well be beyond reproach. this is an instance, typos, spelling, where I decidedly am not, until someone appoints themselves the schoolmarm of spelling .)
dc
Bill Heuisler -
8/4/2004
Mr. Wisler,
I don't give a damn what your politics are. Your ability to read English and make judgements is what matters.
First: Starr found nothing? Really? Whitewater resulted in 16 convictions including an Attorney General. The Rose Law firm wasn't prosecuted in spite of purloined records.
Do you know what nothing means?
Second: Do you know what bastard means?
My assumptions are based on your statements. My opinion is that you are a sloppy thinker with an alligator mouth.
Come to Tucson. Look me up in the phone book. We'll talk.
Bill Heuisler
Arnold Shcherban -
8/4/2004
Derek, Derek
Back to your good old tactics to distort the meaning
of someone else's comments to justify your own ones...
Several days ago I accidentally bumped into your challenge: to have polemics on the US foreign policy.
I responded with consent immediately, adding a couple
of stipulations to make polemics-to-be as fair as possible.
Unfortunately, I could not find the posts where that exchange has transpired later on, so I don't know whether you are willing to get into it or not.
I'm so ready and eager to see, as you solemnly promised, that you are smarter than I, though I still don't know what you have meant by this (more sophisticated in distortion, disregard for history, and illogical reasoning?).
Robert Wisler -
8/4/2004
Mr. Heuisler,
So I misspelled "thieving" (stupid i before e rule). It doesn't change the fact that you took someone else's words and claimed them for your own, which Derek pointed out fairly clearly.
My point was that Derek can think that anything he wants is loathsome, and not have to apologize for having that opinion. I never said I thought it was loathsome, just that you can't tell Derek to "admit" something he may or may not feel he should.
As for my own personal politics and the Clinton scandle, I think it's funny you assume I am some bleeding heart liberal because I think that the Clinton impeachment was a sham. Kenneth Starr was brought in to investigate the Whitewater scandal. What did he find? NOTHING. So he dug through Clinton's personal life, which he had no business doing. Do I think it is right that Clinton was screwing around with an intern? No. Is it the public's right to know that he is doing that? No. Clinton was impeached for lying under oath about something that he should never have been asked.
Also, I think we should be in Iraq, I actually don't think we went soon enough, and I know there are WMD's in Iraq. When nearly 2 tons of nuclear and radiological material are removed, that is a pretty good indication something funny is going on. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/07/07/iraq.nuclear/index.html
I don't think that Bush misled the country, I think he is a bad public speaker and wasn't able to get his points across well. I also think that the liberal media has very poorly covered this war, and has blown things out of proportion making things much worse than they actually are.
You shouldn't make assumptions off of a few typed lines. Doing so is ignorant, and ends up making you look like a fool.
Ben H. Severance -
8/4/2004
Careful, my Daddy was a submarine officer, but then he thought the other branches of the Navy were worthless. Anyway, I bow (no pun intended) to your stronger tactical knowledge. Hell, in the end nothing really prepares you to be president of the United States. Kerry or Bush? It comes down to gut feelings, and I find Bush lacking and am willing to give Kerry a chance.
Bill Heuisler -
8/4/2004
Mr. Wisler,
Dictate opinions? Derek's rights? "theiving bastard"?
You don't know me well enough to call me a bastard. The safety of the printed word has pumped your testosterone and made you think your mispelled insults matter to me.
And perhaps you've stumbled into the wrong web site. The stated purpose of HNN is discussion of history. Do you understand what discussion entails? Points of view and opposing points of view are given. No one tries to deprive anyone's opinions...if that were possible.
Perhaps your point deals more with political correctness and the audacity of Republicans who don't like Senators who would risk national security for the union vote. Your off-handed dismissal of the Clinton impeachment for lying under oath sort of gives your unlettered type away.
This "theiving bastard" has the opinion that people like you don't mind when Gore/Mcdermott/Lee/Moore says Bush betrayed his country, or when the NAACP implies Bush helped kill a black man or that black churches will burn if Repubs take over. But you get all faux-enraged when a Senate vote is criticized with some photos of OBL added.
Get a point of view you can defend and learn to spell. Apologize to my mother. And maybe someday (if you're lucky)this "theiving bastard" will notice your opinions.
Bill Heuisler
Richard Henry Morgan -
8/3/2004
For infantry troops, yes, you turn to the fire and assault into it. Kerry wasn't infantry. He turned a Swift boat toward the bank and bow first plowed into the bank, and left his boat (which he commanded) to chase down a VC.
There's a reason for the opposite SOP. You turn stern to fire and thereby bring Mount 51 AND Mount 52 into play (you can't bring Mount 52 to bear when going at the enemy bow first), and rather than bringing yourself closer to small arms range (from concealed positions), you separate yourself so that your 50's can reach them, but not vice versa. His own commander said he probably should have court-martialed him, but put him in for a medal instead -- of course, that's the Navy, the service for the faux aristocracy, where it has always mattered more who your Daddy was.
Ben H. Severance -
8/3/2004
Kerry isn't my favorite choice either and I've had to work hard to like him, which is something I want to do given that I'll be voting for him. As for the Bush freeze, my understanding is that he was informed about the first plane hit prior to going into the classroom, and was informed about the second one as he was sitting with the school kids. One plane can be dismissed as virtually anything; twos planes is definitely a conspiracy of some sort. And given the numerous warnings about Al-Quaeda activities in the days and weeks before 9/11, a threat warning the American people were ignorant of but Bush and Dr. Rice were not, the president's inaction is all the more damning. While it is true that most people would have probably hesitated upon hearing the bad news, Americans deserve a president who possesses the caliber of those few who would have reacted decisively. As a fellow army veteran, you and I know that the correct response to an ambush is to rush toward the enemy fire, not hunker down. Bush lacks the instincts and training for that kind of decision-making, whereas Kerry's gunboat days suggest that he has it within him to take charge in a crisis.
Derek Charles Catsam -
8/3/2004
Thanks, Robert. I wrote this whole long post. leave it to Bill to pick out an ancillary part of the larger post and pretend it was of prime significance. Or should I say leave it to Lowry? It's all so very confusing. Oh wait -- even Lowry agreed that some of the juxtapositions were over the top.
dc
Derek Charles Catsam -
8/3/2004
Yup, Ralph -- that's my point -- the juxtaposition, the implications, the clear and obvious slurs. Any attempt to equate an American politician with someone like bin Laden, or in the case of what lefties do to Bush and company, Hitler, is simply unacceptable. It is loathsome. It was slimy.
dc
Robert Wisler -
8/3/2004
Bill,
I don't understand why you don't let this go. Derek does not have to, nor should he admit that his "loathsome" comment was out of line. That is his opinion, and the First Amendment gives him the right to say that's what he feels. I am sure there are many things that people find loathsome that you or I may or may not agree with. An example of this would be the Clinton-Lewinski scandle. I, for one, don't think it was a big deal, at least not as big of a deal as Starr made it out to be, but many people, especially Repubs, found that to be loathsome. I am not going to make you change your opinion, or admit that the whole incident was not loathsome because that is your opinion, and I have not right to dictate that.
Just because Derek pointed out that you are a theiving bastard, doesn't mean you have the right to force him to change his opinion about something.
Also, saying that Derek's comment was a slur against Republicans is pointless. Are you suggesting that Democrats don't "slur" against Republican ideals, and that Republicans don't "slur" against Democrat ideals on a daily basis?
My point is, Bill, is that everyone, you, me, Derek, everyone, is entitled to their own opinion, and you have no right to dictate what a person's opinion is.
Ralph E. Luker -
8/3/2004
Bill, I live in Georgia. I saw all the ads in which Saxby Shameless depicted Max Cleland alongside Ossama bin Laden. Given Shameless's non-participation in the military defense of the United States, the whole business was "loathsome." Got that? Some politicians are real big on sending other people's children into war -- even when they avoided going themselves. Loathsome.
Bill Heuisler -
8/3/2004
Derek and Ephraim,
Thanks for your concern and your advice.
Now, Derek, answer the damned question or admit the
"loathsome" comment was way out of line. Dwelling on this article and my horrible crime reveals your inability to defend your slur on Repubs in general and Chambliss in particular. You remind me of a bad defense attorney: Can't argue the facts? argue the law; can't argue the law? defame the witness. Call me all the names you want, but have the simple courage to defend your insult.
Bill
Richard Henry Morgan -
8/3/2004
I'm not familiar with the film, so I don't know the particulars. For instance, I don't know whether Bush was informed that we were under attack, or whether he was informed that a plane had crashed into the WTC -- let's not read what we knew afterward back into what Bush knew at the time.
I can't say that Bush is decisive -- in fact, I've never said it. I'm just not sure that Kerry is an improvement. I think he's a bit of flake (the Christic Institute thing, the Che Guevara thing) and I think he's a bit of trimmer, and a bit of resume polisher (without much substance to back it up). Then again, Bush doesn't have much of a resume to polish. And my biggest objection to Kerry is not on Iraq, but on Kuwait. On that issue he had more faces in a shorter amount of time than just about anyone. And I do know one thing, having served in the Army. If you lobby for a Purple Heart for a 3mm piece of shrapnel (not even clearly from enemy fire), not fully imbedded, and removed with forceps without local anesthetic, and without stitches, then that tells me something about your character and tells me you qualify as the KING OF ALL WIMPS, and shameless beyond compare. That is not to say that Kerry would be the worst of all choices -- I certainly like him better than Gore.
Ben H. Severance -
8/3/2004
Richard,
There is a difference between vacillating over a particular foreign policy approach and sitting dumbstruck after you've been informed the nation is under direct attack. In looking at American strategy involving Iraq, I see Kerry wrestling with the right course of action. You see him waffling and flip-flopping. In dealing with terror attacks on America, you see Bush as decisive and his clutch on 9/11 as an aberration. I see him as incapable of wise leadership and his ten minute freeze on 9/11 as indicative of his true character. Like his daddy before him, George Bush is a WIMP.
E. Simon -
8/3/2004
Ethics aside, Bill (not that I disagree with them or the conclusion in this case), let's address the labor of it. For all that incredibly minor and selective editing couldn't less work been put into quoting or linking, with arguably more productive results? Despite the fact that this setting is not *formally* academic, I find it hard to understand why you would do something like this. It almost seems like you wouldn't have had confidence in your own ideas or interpretations, despite what would have seemed previously like evidence to the contrary...
If it's a one-time offense, I would regret seeing you stew more excessively than necessary, but stuff like this calls such presumptions into question. Contrarians help enliven and deepen debate, so even if only in that sense I saw value in your contributions. It's regrettable if you would cheapen that role out of a mistaken sense of expediency.
Ralph E. Luker -
8/2/2004
Heuisler undoubtedly has monumental balls. He did it and, when he got caught, he said he did it and said he'd do it again and by damn it's a fuckin' patriotic virtue!
Derek Charles Catsam -
8/2/2004
Bill --
Again -- it would be much better if you just either let this one pass or else apologized without resorting to how much or how little you did in fact plagiarize. And there is no way I am apologizing for anything when in both of my posts on this matter I referred readers to the article and your comments to let them decide. You stole exact words, exact phrases, and exact ideas. Trying to turn the tables sometimes works when there might be some argument in your favor. It's great that you once again were able to use the cut and paste function and this time in so doing included the name of the author and the source.
But in any case -- "one or two similarities," eh?
Here is what Bill wrote in his post:
“Cleland set himself up that he was voting with liberals and public-employee unions against Georgia common sense and national security. And if you can't criticize the Senate votes of a senator in a Senate race, what can you criticize?”
Here were Lowry’s words:
“Cleland still opposed it, setting himself up for the charge that he was voting with liberals and the public-employees unions against Bush and Georgia common sense. (Last sentence of paragraph)
If you can't criticize the Senate votes of a senator in a Senate race, what can you criticize? (First sentence of next paragraph.)
One or two similarities. Huh.
Lowry wrote (not hard to find -- these are the next sentences following those last two):
“Throughout the race, Cleland tried to hide behind the idea that his patriotism was being questioned. A columnist for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution noted in June of 2002 that "this 'how-dare-you-attack-my-patriotism' ploy, replete with feigned outrage...is a device to put Cleland's voting records off-limits." It didn't work. Chambliss won the crucial endorsement of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, which made its nod on the basis of the two candidates' differing records on national-security and veterans issues. The VFW wouldn't have been complicit in a gutter campaign based on smearing a Vietnam veteran.”
Bill wrote:
“Throughout the rest of the race, Cleland tried to hide behind the idea that his patriotism was being questioned. A columnist for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution noted in June/2002 that "this 'how-dare-you-attack-my-patriotism' ploy, replete with feigned outrage is a device to put Cleland's voting records off-limits." It didn't work. Chambliss won the crucial endorsement of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, which made its nod on the basis of the two candidates' differing records on national-security and veterans issues. Think about it, Derek, the VFW wouldn't have helped a campaign smearing a Vietnam vet.”
OK – I could go on. But I think this might not be the time for you to accuse me of sniveling, or to accuse me of evading the real issue, or to accuse me of petty dodging, or of whatever else you want to accuse me of. This hardly is “one or two similarities.” This is strings of sentences from an article that was not that damned long. And it is the heart of your argument. Your post-facto citation of an article that I have now referred readers to twice, once with a hotlink, hardly takes you off the hot seat on this one. I am certain this will prove to be somehow my failing in your eyes. But my guess is the folks reading this will get the point. "Petty dodging" he says. Egads. And then he has the audacity to say I am the one who ought to be apologizing.
dc
Bill Heuisler -
8/2/2004
Okay Derek, you asked for it.
Here's the article:
"July 29, 2004, 5:58 p.m.
Max Cleland, Liberal Victim
Election mythology.
By Rich Lowry
EDITOR'S NOTE: Former U.S. Senator Max Cleland introduces John Kerry tonight, the fourth night of the 2004 Democratic Convention in Boston. He's a rallying point for Democrats, who believe his 2002 reelection bid was unfairly defeated — that his reelection was stolen — by Republicans. That's a myth, but a powerful one. Rich Lowry explains it in this piece that first appeared on NRO on Feb. 20, 2004.
Meet the new Florida. He is the former Democratic senator from Georgia, Max Cleland. Just as the 2000 Florida voting fiasco symbolizes for Democrats the election-stealing illegitimacy of Bush Republicans, Cleland's 2002 reelection defeat represents their low-blow tactics on national security. Cleland, who came back from Vietnam a triple amputee, travels often with Sen. John Kerry as the leader of the presidential candidate's "band of brothers." On the campaign trail, he is considered a sainted political martyr, the embodiment of liberal victimhood in the Age of Bush.
This is trumped-up mythology based on the idea that Republicans "questioned Cleland's patriotism" in 2002. Kerry captures it best: "To this day I am motivated by — and I will be throughout this campaign — the most craven moment I've ever seen in politics, when the Republican party challenged this man's patriotism in the last campaign." Democrats make it sound as though Cleland's opponent, the four-term Republican congressman Saxby Chambliss, ran an ad something like this: "Sen. Max Cleland," — cue the ominous music — "is he a patriot? Georgia wants to know."
Of course, nothing remotely like this ran. The case for foul play rests on a tough anti-Cleland ad that Chambliss broadcast featuring Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. The ad didn't morph Cleland into either of these figures or say that he supported them. It noted at its beginning that the United States faced threats to its security as the screen was briefly divided into four squares, with bin Laden and Saddam in two of them and the other two filled with images of the American military.
It went on to explain that Cleland had voted 11 times against a homeland-security bill that would have given President Bush the freedom from union strictures that he wanted in order to set up the new department. The bill was co-sponsored by his Georgia colleague Sen. Zell Miller, a fellow Democrat. Bush discussed details of the bill personally with Cleland, and Chambliss wrote him a letter prior to running his ad urging him to support the Bush version. Cleland still opposed it, setting himself up for the charge that he was voting with liberals and the public-employees unions against Bush and Georgia common sense.
If you can't criticize the Senate votes of a senator in a Senate race, what can you criticize? Throughout the race, Cleland tried to hide behind the idea that his patriotism was being questioned. A columnist for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution noted in June of 2002 that "this 'how-dare-you-attack-my-patriotism' ploy, replete with feigned outrage...is a device to put Cleland's voting records off-limits." It didn't work. Chambliss won the crucial endorsement of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, which made its nod on the basis of the two candidates' differing records on national-security and veterans issues. The VFW wouldn't have been complicit in a gutter campaign based on smearing a Vietnam veteran.
Another theme in the "Cleland was done dirty" argument is that a racist backlash against a proposed change to the Georgia state flag — to de-emphasize a Confederate symbol — helped sink him. But the issue didn't feature much at all in the Senate race. Chambliss sidestepped it. And in 2002, supposedly racist Georgian voters re-elected a black attorney general and a black labor commissioner while Cleland was losing.
Cleland's undoing was that he couldn't negotiate the dilemma facing many Southern Democrats — how to vote liberal in Washington while appearing conservative at home. The Democrat was on record supporting countless tax increases, and voted with his party's leadership against protecting the Boy Scouts from a campaign to keep them out of public schools and against banning partial-birth abortion. In many of these votes, he parted ways with his more conservative and popular colleague Miller, thus creating a major political vulnerability. He lost fair and square.
If John Kerry wants to surround himself with veterans like Max Cleland, fine — their country owes them a lot. But, please, stop the whining."
Now read my post. One or two similarities. Everybody else read my post (especially you, Ralph) and see how much was borrowed. So, either apologise, Derek or, at least stop sniveling. Answer the question I asked about how the Chambliss campaign was "loathsome". If you can't answer that question and explain yourself, withdraw the comment and stop all the petty, collateral dodging.
Bill
Richard Henry Morgan -
8/2/2004
While we're at it, can we have an end to inflationary war records. Cleland is not, as Terry McAuliffe would have it, a combat-wounded purple heart veteran -- he put himself in a wheelchair for life when he picked up unexploded ordinance on his way out of Vietnam. And Gore as combat journalist? The guy reported on highway construction for a construction battalion. Lillies are fine as they are -- they don't need gilding.
Derek Charles Catsam -
8/2/2004
Bill and company --
Look, I was not trying to create a tempest in a teapot here, and that is why I in fact did show a kinder gentler side by chiding your post # and not calling you out by name. I figured the link plus by comments would push others to check the record and see if i am right or wrong here. And it is why I have left Ralph to fight this one out. But i am sorry -- this was not a matter of some paraphrasing a bit too closely to the original article. This was taking a good deal of the article itself and slapping it down, including the comments about senators and their records. I continue to believe that people can check the article. i also contend that i trust that Bill has not been doing this on a consistent basis, that generally Bill does not need NR or anyone else to make his points. But in this instance, a serious mistake was made. Taking someone else's words, not attributing them, claiming them as your own is not simply some esoteric rule in the groves of academe. Beyond being actionable, I honestly cannot think of a profession or any other context where it would be acceptable. I am otherwise inclined to think it was a mistake. but absent some sort of acknowledgment and at least a hint of mae culpa, I do not know what else to say. Again, I encourage readers to check out the orginal post to which I refer (#39197) and the National Review piece I cite. Make your own judgments. I doubt this is the most important question on the table now, but in many ways for many people who have been on HNN for a while, it might well be the most, er, interesting.
dc
Richard Henry Morgan -
8/2/2004
I think he's referring to the NAACP Fund ad about Bush's veto of hate-crime legislation being like killing the guy all over again (the guy who was dragged to his death -- Byrd was it?). My goodness, the guys face the electric chair. And the Sheppard guy's parents begging to spare the lives of his killers, and then testifying that his murder demonstrates the need for hate-crimes legislation. Give me a break.
tom plotts -
8/2/2004
Bill, your point is taken and to a degree I find it fair. Sports boards are, in fact, overwhelmingly conservative. As a result, there's not much ability to measure whether wide-stripe progressives do the same thing in that medium. Do non-conservatives exhibit the same tendency to regurgitate script (and really, this is the central issue here, since the plagiarism charge on a message board is kinda intense)? Yes, they do. I've measured this myself on other kinds of boards where you're most likely to find a majority progressive outlook. The fact is, almost no one footnotes or references script in informal argument. I think most of us can agree on that.
I will defend, however, as a matter of empirically measurable fact, that there are important and substantive differences between the way conservatives and progressives handle fact claims, and though there are inarguably those on the "left" who do the same cut and paste gigs as if they are the ones speaking, they do it a) less frequently (though they still attempt to mimick an established argument, as do we all) and b) "swim" much more frequently without the verbal life preservers. Many researchers have documented this phenomenon in a variety of disciplines, and to my knowledge, no one has yet to approach countervailing results.
I'm less interested in the frequency then I am in point B, which is as disturbing as it is insightful. My point in the previous post is perfectly valid (and easily provable). having made it doesn't attmept to whitewash the fact that non-conservatives engage in the same behavior.
While I'm in here, and hoping this message posts properly, I didn't ignore your previous post on another thread about the convention. I had typed up a response and it didn't take.
I do find the cut and paste phenomenon interesting in ways that don't involve student ethics rules, so whether or not you cut a swath from a NR article and posted it on a board doesn't concern me. And by the way, I do need a rest. Sadly, being stuck in the low wage workforce at the moment, resting doesn't come with the social contract down here. It's a commodity like anything else, and most of us can't afford it.
Ralph E. Luker -
8/2/2004
What was loathesome about ads directed against little Bush in 2000?
Bill Heuisler -
8/2/2004
Ralph,
Thanks for the love; I'll take all I can get. As for the Senate race, he voted against the bill because of AFSCME and other unions' opposition to a bill that didn't include compulsory union memborship. The inclusion of OBL and Saddam visuals may have been questionable, but no where near as bad as the ads directed against W in 2000. I know, two wrongs... But still, "loathsome"? His Senate record is certainly germaine. Admits it? Are there any other instances that make the campaign against Cleland descend to loathsome? Could you be more specific? You may use whole sentences of any articles that address this issue and I won't question your ethics.
Bill
Ralph E. Luker -
8/2/2004
No, Bill, source _isn't_ _obvious_ until a sharp-eyed Catsam points it out. Plagiarism is a) the theft of someone else's words and b) the theft of someone else's ideas. You commit both. I'm not insulting you. I'm teaching you. You know, tough love. Right? You're big on tough love, aren't you? Self respect and respect for property rights are good conservative values.
I happen to live in Georgia. The smear of Max Cleland was loathsome and it was done by my fellow Republicans. I'm just one of the honest ones who admits it.
Bill Heuisler -
8/2/2004
Ralph,
After years of discussion, thanks for your kind words. Before you continue, please read my words again and then read the NR article. Source is obvious, but plagiarism seems merely an attempt to intimidate.
No offense, but Liberals seem to avoid defending their insults (loathsome, attacking Cleland's patriotism) by questioning methods or motives of critics. If you can't argue the Cleland question, why bother insulting me?
Bill
Richard Henry Morgan -
8/2/2004
Does that judgment of not taking seriously apply ex post facto, or just prospectively to those who declare rather than hide their intent? Just wondering.
Ralph E. Luker -
8/2/2004
Am I to believe that these are Bill Heuisler's own words or has he copied these words from NRO or some Freeper? Quotation marks aren't that difficult, Bill. There's a reason they were invented.
Ralph E. Luker -
8/2/2004
Bill,
Having your assurance in advance that you will plagiarize any time you damn well feel like it gives me just the excuse I need never to take seriously anything you post anywhere. I'd rather argue with the source than with some copycat. It's a matter of your having some respect for the worthiness of your _own_ ideas and words. Where's the conservative respect for property rights? I can read NRO anytime I want to. I don't need you cutting and pasting it elsewhere on the net and signing your own name to it.
Bill Heuisler -
8/2/2004
Mr. Plotts,
Right Wing sports fans? You need a rest. This tempest seems a little overheated when you consider how Democrat talking Points always seem to sprout simultaneously from dozens of talking heads on news shows. Remember gravitas comments after the Chaney choice; History Professors chorusing the desecration of the Baghdad Museum? Facts about a Senate campaign in Georgia remain facts whether they are repeated or not, and plagiarism in this context is bludgeon rather than argument.
Bill Heuisler
Bill Heuisler -
8/2/2004
Ralph,
Feel better now? Mea maxima culpa and all that. Enjoy, but explain the distance you always keep from the written thoughts/concepts of others. Do we footnote similarities? Strings of descriptions? Repeated series of facts? Derek avoids defending his comment by accusing. Reminds me of Berger's defenders carping about the timing of the leak.
I'll say three hail Marys and three Our Fathers, but the next time I find an article that states my feelings I'll do the same thing and suffer the slings and arrows.
Bill
Bill Heuisler -
8/2/2004
Derek,
Caught me? If you are setting some new standard for HNN posts please set up the parameters. Using lines of an article, cutting paragraphs, adding comments and editing for brevity is common on this site. Excuse me for saving time and putting facts on the table - facts that strongly refute your statement. If I'd been repeating opinions and not facts you'd have a case. You're avoiding discussion of the issue, aren't you?. Also, the article represented my beliefs. To save time I pasted it complete before chopping and adding comments. Please tell me where you, or where the exchange of ideas was harmed by my method?
Derek, why not defend your loathsome Republican comment instead of playing some silly gotcha game? What ever happened to that new attitude you mentioned?
Bill
Richard Henry Morgan -
8/2/2004
Kerry is an interesting case. In Nicaragua he foresaw ... another Vietnam. Wrong. His question to CIA officer Felix Rodriguez? Why didn't you do more to save Che Guevara? He supported the suit of the Christic Institute -- a suit so bizarre, that even with time extensions granted by the judge, they were unable to meet the burden of even going to trial, and so was summarily dismissed.
What bothers me more is the revisionism. You might want to check out the Boston Globe column on Kerry, from 2/12/2004, called John Kerry's Shifting Sands, and watch as he glides back and forth on his rationale for his Kuwait vote. Then come back and tell me about his decisiveness.
Richard Henry Morgan -
8/2/2004
What does Kerry's support for mere sanctions in dealing with Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, given the subsequent failure of a decade of sanctions to achieve their ends, tell us about Kerry's assessment of realities in that region? Do you believe that mere sanctions could have dislodged Saddam? If not, is it of no consequence? Or do you honestly think that at some point Kerry would have aknowledged failure of his sanctions, and called for an invasion? It seems to me that Kerry's ability to decide in the absence of pressure is not any better than Bush's under pressure.
tom plotts -
8/2/2004
Good thing this was just a message board and not a paper, eh?
I just hope you're not going to start imposing footnote requirements...heh heh (just kidding! don't send the hit squad!).
on lesser boards, this thing is common. When I was collecting research on a host of sports boards, I was amazed at how many right wingers were cutting and pasting straight out of places like Freep, and passing this material off as their own thoughts. It was like a combat operation of sorts, not an actual discussion. Buzz word begat buzz word, and next you thing you knew, threads degenerated into long link-posting fests. My guy says this, my woman says this...and lost was that no one was really saying what they would say in conditions of social isolation (like talking at a bar). Creepy stuff.
Ben H. Severance -
8/2/2004
Jon,
This is less a comment on your comment, which I agree with, than a general statement about veteran status and Bush's unworthiness to lead the most powerful nation on earth. Learning once again of Kerry's heroics in Vietnam, I found myself, once again, disgusted by Bush's 1970s AWOL in the South escapade. Moreover, Moore's 9/11 movie , much of which I dismissed as hyperbole, emphasized Bush's incapacity for decisive leadership as revealed by the paralytic fog he went into at the elementary school after hearing news about the attacks. The ten minutes during which he wet his pants, at least figuratively, was a crucial interval during which a real leader, as opposed to a party puppet, might have immediately ordered an F-16 scramble, one that might have intercepted the Pentagon plane. These are instances where character are revealed. The Republicans bashed Clinton for his alleged lack of moral character. I bash Bush for his demonstrated lack of martial character. It's time for new leadership; it's time for Kerry.
Ralph E. Luker -
8/1/2004
Jeez, Bill. I think Professor Catsam's sharp eye caught you on that one. You need to disable the cut and paste function on your computer.
Richard Henry Morgan -
8/1/2004
Good points all, Derek. We do seem to cut our own side breaks. I note no comment on the inflation of a 3mm piece of shrapnel into a round in the arm. There are pros and cons on all sides. That Bush served at all is a pro, though that he jumped the line into the National Guard with help and didn't do 3 whole weekends in a timely fashion or perhaps at all (it wasn't unusual to miss weekends and make them up the following quarter -- though that hasn't been demonstrated in this case) is a con. That he volunteered for rotation to Nam, when his aircraft type (an interceptor) was considered for assignment there, counts in his favor.
That Kerry volunteered (knowing he was to be drafted) is still a pro, as is the fact that he sought dangerous duty, and acquitted himself well. That he lobbied shamelessly for a Purple Heart for a scratch the size of a rose thorn is a con. That he rode that out of Nam after only 4 months in riverine service is a con. And that he applied for and received early separation (he didn't even fulfill the amount he volunteeered for) is also a con. All in all, he's still above Bush, in my book, in terms of military service. I think as long as one is able to keep honest score, I don't think there's a moral necessity to genuflect before Kerry's war record -- just give it its due, and no more.
Derek Charles Catsam -
8/1/2004
(The money lines in this post come later, but bear with the first paragraph): It seems rather odd that we are suddenly hearing rationalizations about how a war record suddenly does not matter after hearing just how much it did matter in both 1992 and especially in 1996. Certainly there was no shortage of stories about Bob Dole's (well earned, in my mind) heroism in 1996. What I find especially interesting is that without any substantiation we are also suddenly asking questions about Kerry's war record. And so far, no dice. And what is most curious is that all of this just happens to break down along party lines. Nice to see which supporters of which party are suddenly making military service just another potential chink in the armor. Nice to see just how quickly the pride in the uniform falls aside when there are points to be scored. Now that the service records of the GOP don't quite match up to that of the candidates on the Democratic side, apparently service just ain't what it used to be (just a few months ago). Some would find this shameful. Others, just pathetic.
But as far as shameful and/or pathetic go:
The most interesting development for those keeping score:
For those who want to see plagiarism (by which I mean stealing the words of others and claiming them as one's own) in action, look at the wording of the post to which I am responding (#39197) -- I believe it is five posts above this one -- and the language in this article in the National Review -- and keep in mind that Kerry's integrity is somehow in question. Note the unattributed exact line "if you can't criticize the Senate votes of a Senator" etc etc. -- Actually, note the exact language of most of the post, and then read the article. The lack of attribution for exact language (by which I mean word for word, paragraph for paragraph) throughout is, to say the least, interesting.:
At least some of us rewrite the lines we steal from others. Anyway -- Kerry's integrity was on the line? Loathsome indeed. At least I wrote my own words. And Kerry did his. Again -- the National Review article (hint -- among folks who pay attention, it may be best not to steal conservative arguments, word for word, from the National Review -- just a friendly word of advice) in question, which apparently is what I am actually responding to, will seem hauntingly familiar to those who either A) read the article first: or B) read it second.
Even a Michael Crowley article in Slate, which would support this argument against mine, agreed that the GOP tactics against Clelend were "sleazy in its use of Osama and Saddam" against Cleland." But on the plus side. Crowley did not plagiarize. So he's got that going for him. Which is nice. This should at least protect those of us on the left from having our integrity impugned in the near future.
dc
Arnold Shcherban -
8/1/2004
Bill,
Like father, like son.
I would say that is the political and practical quality ratio of Democratic to Republican Party.
The difference from 'one' for the about 80% of Americans currently lies just in the partisan imagination of either of those.
Bill Heuisler -
8/1/2004
Mr. Plotts,
Though we disagree on degrees of hypocrisy between the two parties (we Repubs probably wouldn't harp if Kerry didn't begin every sentence with his VN service reminder) your comment about the Dem convention intrigues me.
Let's see if I comprehend your message: If the Republican convention comes across as a luke-warm, me-too love fest I'll declare it a disaster too. I believe in red meat issues; my party better reflect that or I'm wasting my time. Is that how you feel about the Boston tea party last week? What would you have liked to have seen?
Bill Heuisler
tom plotts -
7/31/2004
Some of you guys must be kidding, right? It's one thing to suggest that taking a round in the arm does not a president make (if that were the case, I'd be sucking down endless cases of Bud in the Oval Office myself, along with a few thousand co-presidents). It's another entirely to beat up on a guy who at least bothered to show up when he didn't have to, and in turn ignore the clear failures of your own guy to pull a quarter of that weight.
One of my great disappointments with the Democratic strategy this cycle is that they're playing a card that only 8 years ago they had to diminish to defend Clinton against Dole. This hypocrisy between both parties--and their utterly uncritical sycophants--is nauseating.
I don't need to prove that Bush is a draft dodger to decide that I think his policies reek. Conversely, Kerry could have personally pulled Lois Lane from Hiroshima with his hair intact and that wouldn't make me fondle his name on an electronic screen. A hero who bashes the poor is no better than a coward who cuts taxes primarily for his peers.
In response to the original blog; Derek, I thought that was nice work.
Personally, I thought Sharpton's speech was the best of the bunch, though Big Dog, as always when he's not replicating 19th century time limits, was easy on the ears.
Other than that, I thought the convention was a catastrophe in more ways than one. I'm talking to a lot of Democrats that are considering throwing up their hands and joining the exodus out of the party entirely.
Richard Henry Morgan -
7/31/2004
I know. Kerry did the same thing earlier this year when his voting record on defense was questioned. Here's the link to the Drudge Report bit on the Kerry book. It's called Unfit To Command, and will be interesting to see if it is really any good, or just the mirror image of those puff-piece political biographies that are churned out at campaign time:
Mr. Morgan,
Thanks. One can only wonder why Kerry's war record isn't more public since his FBI records are supposedly quite extensive. I would really like to know the truth because the subject comes up all the time.
Speaking of the truth, Derek's eighth para on "loathsome" Republican tactics against Max Cleland is not accurate.
There was a Chambliss anti-Cleland ad that featured OBL and Saddam Hussein. The ad said the United States faced threats to its security as the screen was briefly divided into four squares, with bin Laden and Saddam in two of them and the other two with images of US soldiers. The ad said Cleland had voted 11 times against a Homeland-Security bill that canceled Federal union participation, (co-sponsored by his Georgia colleague Zell Miller).
Cleland set himself up that he was voting with liberals and public-employee unions against Georgia common sense and national security. And if you can't criticize the Senate votes of a senator in a Senate race, what can you criticize?
Throughout the rest of the race, Cleland tried to hide behind the idea that his patriotism was being questioned. A columnist for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution noted in June/2002 that "this 'how-dare-you-attack-my-patriotism' ploy, replete with feigned outrage is a device to put Cleland's voting records off-limits." It didn't work. Chambliss won the crucial endorsement of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, which made its nod on the basis of the two candidates' differing records on national-security and veterans issues. Think about it, Derek, the VFW wouldn't have helped a campaign smearing a Vietnam vet.
Another Cleland Was Smeared argument is one of a racist backlash against a change in the Georgia flag shrinking a Confederate symbol. But the issue didn't feature much at all in the Senate race and Chambliss sidestepped it. In 2002 the racist Georgian voters re-elected a black AG and a black labor commissioner while Cleland was losing.
Cleland couldn't get away with voting liberal in DC while talking conservative in Georgia. He supported countless tax increases and voted against protecting Boy Scouts from a campaign to keep them out of public schools. He even voted against banning partial-birth abortion. Max Cleland won a Silver Star evacuating wounded under fire. His bravery and decoration was recommended by others and his commanding officer at the time. This was well known in Georgia and no sane politician would've questioned his patriotism. Reality? He split with conservative, popular Zell Miller opening political vulnerabilies his opponent exploited quite properly.
Why can't we all just get along? Truth will set you free.
Bill
Richard Henry Morgan -
7/30/2004
Mr. Heuisler,
there's a whole book coming out on this stuff -- it's referenced over at Drudgereport.com. I went round and round with Adam Mosche on this site over the subject, but I'm not sure where. It was complete with links.
From what I understand, he took a small bit in his arm, went on sick call, had the piece removed with forceps, no stitches, Bacitracin applied, and a bandaid, and returned to duty. I think he also took some shrapnel in his six, and was similarly returned to duty the same day. One of the three, as I understand it, was what in my Army was a wound -- something where you lost a day of duty from enemy fire.
He released a bunch a stuff to his website months back, and had a handpicked Boston journalist look at some medical stuff (there may have been citations too). There was a sick call slip, if I remember rightly.
Bill Heuisler -
7/30/2004
Mr. Morgan,
As the recipient of some shrapnel myself (no decoration) my interest was piqued by the three Purple Hearts. Did Kerry spend any time in sick bay? Is there a citation and an after-action report on his Silver Star? His Bronze Star? Since he's making such a big deal out of his "duty" I'd like to know if the term, hero, applies. I'm getting a little tired of the peace and love party's new-found patriotism and love of the military. It stinks of hypocricy and opportunism.
Bill Heuisler
Richard Henry Morgan -
7/30/2004
That was my recollection too. I think he went straight into Hyman Rickover's nuclear sub navy from the Academy (after a stop at the Navy training reactor at Idaho Falls), which has, thankfully, never seen combat.
Jonathan Dresner -
7/30/2004
I don't think Carter served in combat. He was a submariner, though, a nuclear reactor engineer.
Richard Henry Morgan -
7/30/2004
Honorable service can't help but be a plus, though hardly a necessity. All else equal, I'd have to go with the veteran -- and I think that contradicts what I've said before.
I didn't know that Carter had a war record!! Expand, if you will. McGovern was a bomber pilot. Nixon, I think, was a navy supply officer somewhere. Which reminds me of Roger Staubach. Came time to graduate, and he had a flight physical, and lo and behold, the Navy up and discovered he was color-blind, and therefore couldn't be a pilot. Poor sap did a tour as a supply officer. You think maybe they fudged his records so he could play football at the Academy?
As for medals. When I served I had a co-worker with a bronze star. I asked him how he got it. He told me he was a Saigon commando. He worked in an office, and went through intel and recon reports, and plotted positions of bunkers and troops and such on a map. And when the density of such was sufficient to justify an arc light strike, he would take out a clear plastic rectangle, and overlay it on the map such as to maximize damage to the concentration, and then read off the coordinates at the corners, which were phoned to the Air Force. That was it. One day a general walked in, pinned a bronze star on him, saluted, and walked out. He said they handed them out like door prizes in Vietnam.
Now to be fair, at least one of Kerry's medals actually involved combat -- I'm not familiar with the details of the other. And two of his purple hearts, it is reported, didn't even result in a lost duty day -- one was a 3mm frag piece not even fully embedded in his arm, which required no stitches, and which may have come from his own M-79 (which doesn't qualify). He rode those three purple hearts to a quick exit from Nam. And four months on a river boat don't make you a grizzled veteran -- though I admit it's a helluva lot more than Bush or Quayle and the National Guard set did. Hell, it's more than Dole ever did -- all he did was manage to get himself shot as a newby replacement Lt in the 10th Mountain. Honorable service by Kerry? Yeah, I'll buy that. Grizzled veteran and war-scarred hero -- a bit too much of the hype machine, I think.
chris l pettit -
7/30/2004
but the man is a war criminal and supports Israel.
I think this election is one of the more prominent reasons why we need to blow up the current US system and start over with the Declaration and Constitution, with slight changes to the judiciary structure...
this article is pretty good...the guys over at L&P probably got a kick out of it and it sums up common sensical feelings about the candidates and the state of US empire at the moment...
millionaire 1 versus millionaire 2
psycho versus psycho
the same FP
one might help greedy middle americans a bit more...is that why we make our decision?
Actually, I was quite impressed by the way in which Kerry made his war record relevant. Yeah, we've hashed and rehashed and overhashed the Vietnam War comparisons to death, but as a soldier's experience, the wars seem pretty comparable to me.
I thought his handling of the issues of terrorism and foreign policy were quite good, overall, avoiding the hellfire and brimstone which Shenkman was calling for, but clearly putting Bush to shame for his policies, and lacks thereof.