Indigenous Grandmas Oppose Doctrines of "Discovery," "Conquest"

by Liberty and Power

"The ultimate goal of the grandmothers - to hand-deliver a statement to Pope Benedict XVI, asking him to rescind several controversial papal bulls that played a part in the colonization of indigenous lands - was thwarted."

Read the story by Rob Capriccioso:"Indigenous Grandmas Nearly Kicked Out of Vatican."

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Gus diZerega - 7/25/2008

Typical right wing debating tactic - change the issue so we cannot focus on the subject rationally. I think the grandmothers did not demand vacating the Vatican - did they? If not your point is absurd.

And as a matter of fact I have frequently alluded to the point that all property in land was stolen at least once as a move to undermine absurd absolutists such as you yourself appear to be.

If your great great great great great grandfather was who my family lore tells me he was - he had it coming because he had murdered my great great great great great great grandfather.

cheers,

Craig J Bolton - 7/25/2008

Well, your great great great great great grandfather murdered my great great great great geat grandfather and stole all his property. So I'm throwing you out of your house as a protest. After all, you've never denounced those actions and made reparations.

That is what you meant to say, right?

Gus diZerega - 7/24/2008

Yeah, the Vatican's respect for the private property of native peoples leaves one in breathless admiration of their essential goodness and sanctity. But then why did one Papal bull described in the article do the following?

"In 1455, for instance, Pope Nicolas authorized Portugal ''to invade, search out, capture, vanquish and subdue all Saracens and pagans'' along the west coast of Africa, enslave them and confiscate their property - which set the tone for European interaction with the indigenous peoples of the Western Hemisphere."

Maybe you can clarify this for me.

Craig J Bolton - 7/24/2008

You know, I must admit to not having a whole lot of sympathy with this demonstration. Libertarians usually believe in private property. The Vatican is private property.

If I came into your living room and sacrificed a bull to "Yahwah" I don't really think it would be relevant to your proper reaction whether or not your people had horribly abused and murdered my people for centuries in the past or that your predecessors had implicitly or explicitly approved of or encouraged such acts. Property rights are property rights and past wrongs are not a good excuse for present wrongs outside of a court and a tort action against perpetrators within the statute of limitations.

Let me give another example here that seems to me to be strictly analogous. Mecca and Medina are considered as Holy to Muslims. They are so Holy that if you aren't a Muslim, you aren't suppose to visit. Now I am a Jew. Muhammad and his immediate successors slaughtered and expelled from the Arabian pennisula a number of Jewish tribes, primarily because they wouldn't acknowledge Muhammad as the newest and ultimate prophet and wouldn't convert to Islam. There were several such tribes who were prominent in the social and economic life of Medina at this time.

So should I "have a right" to parachute into Medina with a couple of rabbis and conduct a Jewish religious service? I don't think so, and I, frankly, don't know of any purported libertarian outside of Napoleon who would give a different answer.