Blogs > Liberty and Power > A Question for Critics of Ron Paul's Critics, Part 3

Mar 24, 2008

A Question for Critics of Ron Paul's Critics, Part 3




[cross-posted at Austro-Athenian Empire]

Now that Ron Paul’s candidacy is winding down, my debate with Walter Block over the analogy or disanalogy between Paul’s and Randy Barnett’s “deviations” no longer has much urgency (assuming it ever did), but let us proceed nonetheless.

Recap: last December I asked why Paul’s supporters downplay the importance of Paul’s deviations from libertarian purity (on, e.g., abortion and immigration – at least for those, like Walter, who agree with me that Paul’s positions on those issues are deviations) while on the other hand treating Barnett’s deviations (above all his support for the war) as a reason to deny his status as a libertarian at all. What justifies this disparity? (My own view is that both men’s deviations are sufficiently serious for me not to support either one for President [not that Barnett is running for President, but supposing he were], but that neither’s deviations disqualifies him from being considered a libertarian.)

Walter replied, I counter-replied, and Walter has now counter-counter-replied. (There’s also lively discussion in the comments section – over 50 posts and counting.) I hereby counter-counter-counter-reply.

1. Walter’s first point is that Barnett’s deviations are more serious than Paul’s: “I see bombing innocent children and adults as a far more serious violation of liberty than aborting fetuses, or violating the rights of people to cross national borders.” This is a bit oddly worded; since Walter agrees with me on the permissibility of abortion, then of course we can agree that bombing innocent people is a more serious violation of liberty than aborting fetuses, since we don’t regard aborting fetuses as a violation of liberty at all. Presumably Walter meant that bombing innocent people is a more serious violation of liberty than preventing women from having abortions.

Now perhaps Walter is right that bombing innocent people is a worse violation of liberty than preventing women from having abortions. But that’s still consistent with thinking that preventing women from having abortions is an extremely serious violation of liberty; and I think any libertarian who holds the position that Walter and I hold on abortion is indeed committed to regarding a prohibition of abortion as an extremely serious violation of liberty, far more serious than, say, drug laws or economic regulations. For a ban on abortion then counts as unrightfully forcing women to allow their bodies to be used as incubators – the moral equivalent of mass rape and mass enslavement. Taking into account the pain and risk involved in childbirth, an abortion ban also counts as the moral equivalent of mass torture. Is mass rape/enslavement/torture a less serious violation of liberty than mass murder? Maybe so; but it certainly counts as being in the same moral ballpark.

Now it is true, of course, that Paul favours returning the abortion issue to the states rather than imposing a federal ban on abortion. That certainly makes his position less objectionable than it would otherwise be. (For my views on how to weigh the merits of decentralism against the merits of striking down local oppressive legislation, see the second half of my LRC article on Kelo.) Perhaps Walter will say that’s enough to make the difference between purgatorio for Paul and inferno for Barnett. Well, suppose we stipulate that that is so. Still, we may also note that Barnett is an anarchist while Paul is not. So Paul supports, while Barnett opposes, what Walter and I will agree is the most anti-liberty institution on earth, unreformable, unsalvageable, an inevitable source of more war and oppression so long as it exists. So why isn’t that enough to lower Paul’s score and/or raise Barnett’s?

2. Walter’s second point is that abortion and immigration are more complex issues than war, and deviation on complex issues counts less against one’s libertarian credentials than deviation on simple issues – just as getting 2 + 2 = 4 wrong counts more against one’s credentials as a mathematician than getting the Pythagorean theorem wrong, or getting the ex ante benefit of exchange wrong counts more against one’s credentials as an Austrian economist than getting the business cycle wrong.

But first of all, it’s not obvious to me that war is a less complex issue than abortion and immigration. Now maybe this is charitable bias on my part toward my own past self: I started my libertarian career as a Randian, so while I was never guilty of the anti-abortion and anti-immigration deviations, I was once hawkishly deviant on the issue of foreign policy – yet I don’t want to deny my past self the title of libertarian. But to put my position less self-servingly, I would say that, having once been a liberventionist myself, I can understand the position from the inside and see how a libertarian could sincerely adopt it. (Just combine an empirically mistaken view about whether a certain use of force is actually defensive with a morally mistaken view about the requirements for permissible violence against innocent shields, and voilà.)

Consider Barnett’s defense of his position here. Is it mistaken? Yes, I think so. Is it so obviously, grossly mistaken that no intelligent libertarian could sincerely adopt it? I can’t see that it is.

But second, even if I were to grant that the libertarian case against war is much simpler and more obvious than the libertarian case against restrictions on abortion and immigration, I can’t see how that would establish that deviation on the former does, while deviation on the latter does not, disqualify the proponent from counting as a libertarian. Greater complexity of an issue may make deviation on that issue more excusable, but I didn’t think we were arguing about who is more blameworthy for a given deviation. Whether Paul and/or Barnett reached their mistaken positions through honest error, culpable intellectual negligence, or some combination of the two is not my concern; I’m not interested in passing judgment on their souls.

The question of how complex an issue is seems to me quite different from the question of how serious a mistake about that issue is. Yes, Walter cites some cases in which the two do go together; but they need not always do so. Getting the fuel mixture wrong in the space shuttle, for example, is a more serious error than misspelling the shuttle’s name on the side, even though the latter error is less complex and so easier to avoid.

Likewise, the libertarian case against abortion laws is surely more complex than the libertarian case against taxation (since the former, unlike the latter, requires assessing the moral status of the fetus); hence it’s much easier to show that taxation is inconsistent with libertarian principles than to show that restrictions on abortion are. But it doesn’t seem to follow that libertarian deviations on abortion are less serious than libertarian deviations on taxation. On the contrary, once we grant that a ban on abortion is a rights-violation, then it must be seen as a worse rights-violation than taxation, since it invades the victim’s very body and not just her external property. And likewise for the pro-life side: if I regarded abortion itself as a rights-violation, I would again have to take it as a worse rights-violation than taxation, inasmuch as murder is worse than theft. So although abortion may be an easier issue for libertarians to get wrong than taxation is, it’s still surely worse to get abortion wrong – whichever side one thinks of as getting it wrong – than to get taxation wrong.

3. Walter thinks the case for regarding a deviation as within rather than beyond the pale of libertarianism depends on whether the deviation is endorsed by prominent libertarian authorities. The argument seems to be mainly epistemological: if so authoritative a libertarian as X holds a certain position, we should be more cautious about rejecting that position, and so accordingly more cautious about how serious a deviation we take it to be. (One might also interpret Walter as offering a paradigm-case argument: if theorist X is a paradigm case of a libertarian, then we cannot treat a deviation held by that theorist as reason to deny libertarian status to holders of that deviation. I’m not sure whether Walter intends this latter argument as well.) Given Walter’s additional premise that anti-immigrationists like Murray Rothbard, Hans Hoppe, and Stephan Kinsella are “more deserving of the title of eminent libertarian theorist” than liberventionists like John Hospers and Randy Barnett, it follows that libertarian deviation on immigration must be more serious than libertarian deviation on war. (Walter is apparently not sure – nor am I – what Hoppe’s and Kinsella’s views on abortion are; it’s an issue that argumentation ethics doesn’t clearly address. K-dog, if you’re reading this, pray enlighten us.)

I’m not convinced. First, with regard to the epistemological argument, suppose it’s true that we should be more cautious about rejecting positions that the “big guns” of libertarianism defend; I would probably put less weight on this point than Walter would, but let’s grant it arguendo. Still I don’t follow the inference from being more cautious in labeling a position as a deviation to attributing a lesser degree of seriousness to those positions we do label as deviations. The strength or certainty with which we’re prepared to hold a position seems like a different matter from the content of the positions we hold. It’s not as though we have to hold extreme views with extreme conviction and moderate views with moderate conviction; on the contrary, we might well have grounds to hold extreme views with moderate conviction and moderate views with extreme conviction. Hence even if thinker X’s greater eminence over thinker Y gives us reason for greater caution in labeling one of X’s positions a deviation than in labeling one of Y’s positions such, if we do decide that X and Y are both guilty of deviations, I can’t see that our reasons for differential caution translate into reasons for regarding X’s deviations as less serious than Y’s.

As for Walter’s claim that Barnett does not count as “eminent,” this isn’t obvious to me. If Walter means “eminent” in the descriptive sense, meaning essentially “famous,” then I think Barnett probably counts as more eminent than, say, Hoppe and Kinsella, though probably less so than Rothbard. If Walter means “eminent” in the normative sense, meaning something like “important” or “deserving to be famous,” then Barnett surely belongs in the same tier of eminence as Hoppe and Kinsella. (I also don’t think the early, pro-immigration Rothbard can be less eminent than the later, anti-immigration Rothbard.) On behalf of Barnett’s claim to normative eminence, I would point to his excellent book The Structure of Liberty and articles on, for example, restitution, contract theory, and Spoonerite jurisprudence, as well as his marvelous two-part piece (Part 1; Part 2) in defense of anarchism. How, in light of these contributions, can we avoid acknowledging Barnett’s status as an eminent libertarian theorist? (I would make such a case for Hospers as well.)

As for the paradigm-case argument (if Walter means to offer one), Mises and Rand surely count as paradigmatic cases of libertarian theorists; yet Mises supported the Cold War, and Rand, though less hawkish than her current followers, held that any free or semi-free country has the right to invade any dictatorship, and that any innocent casualties in such an invasion are to be laid at the door of the invaded dictatorship, not the semi-free invaders. And then there’s Benjamin Tucker, a paradigmatic libertarian theorist for at least some of us, who defended U.S. entry into World War I. So deviation on war seems insufficient grounds for ejection from libertarian status.

In any case, I’m not sure how much should turn on whether a given position counts as within or beyond the pale of libertarianism per se; the main questions, as I see it, are a) is the position mistaken, and b) if so, is the mistake bad enough to warrant refusal to support a candidate? How bad a mistake is and how unlibertarian a mistake is are, after all, different questions. For example, someone who held that the entire human race should be exterminated, but favoured persuasive rather than coercive measures for achieving this, would be taking a worse position than someone who, say, endorsed copyrights, even though the former position has more claim than the latter to be consistent with the letter (though not the spirit) of libertarianism. Favouring voluntary extermination of the human race I would regard as a stronger reason not to support a candidate than favouring copyrights.

4. Walter closes by suggesting that he is “operating from a sort of agnostic point of view,” that of “a newcomer to libertarianism.” Okay, but in that case I have to ask: why is he doing that? After all, he’s not an agnostic; he appears to defend his positions quite forcefully, not tentatively or with one eye over his shoulder toward the eminent libertarian authorities (hey, I’ve heard him call Hans Hoppe a “pinko”! – this is not Mr. Quaking Deference); and he’s certainly less of a newcomer to libertarianism than I am.

5. Finally, I’m curious to know Walter’s opinion of Mary Ruwart’s candidacy. Ruwart holds (what Walter and I regard as) the right libertarian positions on foreign policy and abortion and immigration; plus she’s a generally radical libertarian, a proponent of Austrian business cycle theory, and an anarchist to boot. Does Walter agree with me that Ruwart’s candidacy is more deserving of libertarian support than Ron Paul’s?



comments powered by Disqus

More Comments:


Roderick T. Long - 3/28/2008

I don't agree with him on everything either, but he is very substantially libertarian, and on certain issues (abortion, immigration) where his positions have conflicted with those associated with strict libertarianism, I've tried to argue that he has at least some reasonable case that libertarians might treat with respect.

I think Paul's position on those issues is massively, horribly wrong -- but not crazy, and not disqualifying him as a libertarian. So that puts me somewhere between his supporters and his critics, both of whom seem to think that if a deviation is awful then it's crazy and if it's not crazy then it's not awful. Whereas I hold to the perhaps-depressing view that it's all too easy to end up at an awful position without making crazy mistakes.


Allan Walstad - 3/28/2008

My concern about internecine strife among libertarians was not directed as criticism at you specifically, although it was triggered by the reference to Ron Paul in your post. I've been disheartened by the volume and tone of criticism directed at Paul by many members of the pro-liberty movement. I don't agree with him on everything either, but he is very substantially libertarian, and on certain issues (abortion, immigration) where his positions have conflicted with those associated with strict libertarianism, I've tried to argue that he has at least some reasonable case that libertarians might treat with respect. That's my parting statement on this particular thread.


Roderick T. Long - 3/27/2008

If this is an argument for allowing abortion at 8 1/2 months, it seems like it's an equally good argument for allowing Mom to toss the baby out with the garbage at 2 weeks' age. Is that ok with you too? And suppose you hire me to do brain surgery on you and I decide to quit halfway through? Or I'm your salaried private plane pilot and I bail out (literally) in the middle of a flight?

No, because those conclusions don't follow. I deal with those very examples specifically in my SP&P article; I guess I really need to get that posted online like I keep promising.

It also seems to me that uprooting citizens from their homes and expelling them is a rather higher degree of infringement of liberty than controlling access by outsiders across the border

But under immigration restrictions people do get uprooted from their homes -- people who came in on a work visa or student visa, for example.

It would be nice to see such issues argued on their merits without some libertarians seeking to pin a scarlet "deviations". tag on their fellow travelers.

Hey, I'm the moderate here! Other people have been arguing that those who endorse serious deviations from libertarian purity no longer count as libertarians at all, and I've been arguing against that view.

If you don't like "deviation," what term would you prefer as shorthand for "view put forward as libertarian but actually (in the opinion of the speaker) inconsistent with libertarian principle"? (Because we need such a term, I think.)


Anthony Gregory - 3/27/2008

I see. Thanks for the clarification. I agree.


David T. Beito - 3/27/2008

I am pro-choice and I wouldn't sugarcoat them. Having said that, it is still true that vast majority were performed by competent doctors, at least in the forty or so years before Roe v. Wade.


Allan Walstad - 3/27/2008

"Just as if she agrees to have sex with somebody, and then changes her mind, it's rape if the other person insists on continuing. Or just as if you agree to take a job, and then you change your mind and decide to quit, it's slavery if your employer holds a gun to your head and forces you to keep working. I don't believe in slavery contracts; your right to bodily autonomy is inalienable."

If this is an argument for allowing abortion at 8 1/2 months, it seems like it's an equally good argument for allowing Mom to toss the baby out with the garbage at 2 weeks' age. Is that ok with you too? And suppose you hire me to do brain surgery on you and I decide to quit halfway through? Or I'm your salaried private plane pilot and I bail out (literally) in the middle of a flight?

[me] The fact is that if many millions of people enter, and if they're not particularly libertarian, then with birthright citizenship and "amnesty" they have a path to exerting political power in favor of more statism, and being (at least temporarily) at the bottom of the economic pile gives them an incentive to do so.

[you] If this is an argument for limiting immigration, it seems like it's an equally good argument for deporting native-born citizens if they belong to a more-statist-than-average demographic. Would you favour that also? If not, why not?

[me] No, again in part because trying to do that would probably have net negative consequences for liberty--like, for example, civil war. But if limiting immigration is politically feasible, and if it improves the prospects for moving toward more liberty or avoiding backslide, then it may be a good pragmatic choice. It also seems to me that uprooting citizens from their homes and expelling them is a rather higher degree of infringement of liberty than controlling access by outsiders across the border--and such comparisons can matter when one faces difficult, consequential choices.

To sum up my concerns: On abortion, libertarianism by itself does not yield an unequivocal answer because it depends at least in part on the rights-status of the fetus. On immigration, and on, say, taxation to support some level of military capability, rigid application of libertarian dogma may itself have negative consequences for liberty. It would be nice to see such issues argued on their merits without some libertarians seeking to pin a scarlet "deviations" tag on their fellow travelers.


Roderick T. Long - 3/27/2008

Yes, I think the historical reality of both kinds of prohibition have to be kept in mind before comparing them.

Sure, but let's not sugarcoat the abortion laws. My mother tells of an incident from pre-Roe days where she was at the obstetrician's office and a woman came in massively bleeding from a botched abortion and desperate for medical attention. The obstetrician sent the woman away and refused to help because he would have been charged as accessory after the fact if he had given her any aid.


Roderick T. Long - 3/27/2008

Sorry to Godwin the thread

Only a Nazi sympathiser would do such a thing.


Roderick T. Long - 3/27/2008

So--a woman chooses to have intercourse, carries the fetus for 8 1/2 months, then decides it's inconvenient, so kills it--and any law to the contrary unrightfully forces her to allow her body to be used as an incubator?

Correct. Just as if she agrees to have sex with somebody, and then changes her mind, it's rape if the other person insists on continuing. Or just as if you agree to take a job, and then you change your mind and decide to quit, it's slavery if your employer holds a gun to your head and forces you to keep working. I don't believe in slavery contracts; your right to bodily autonomy is inalienable.

The fact is that if many millions of people enter, and if they're not particularly libertarian, then with birthright citizenship and "amnesty" they have a path to exerting political power in favor of more statism, and being (at least temporarily) at the bottom of the economic pile gives them an incentive to do so.

If this is an argument for limiting immigration, it seems like it's an equally good argument for deporting native-born citizens if they belong to a more-statist-than-average demographic. Would you favour that also? If not, why not?

I don't know that's what would happen. I want to move toward a much freer society. Right now, failing to control the borders quite possibly takes us in the wrong direction. Later, after the income tax has been eliminated, the empire dismantled, drug laws repealed, right to bear arms fully affirmed, etc., let's keep our eyes open as we take each next step, assuming we even get the chance.

I tend to agree with Charles Johnson's argument that we should attack the enforcement arm of the state first (as the factor that makes all the other as possible), rather than leaving it for last.


Sudha Shenoy - 3/27/2008

Do we actually _know_ that the vast bulk of illegal immigrants into the US promptly go onto welfare? Do we actually _know_ that those American voters whose parents were illegal immigrants, all (or mostly) vote for increased welfare? Are there any studies of these issues?


Allan Walstad - 3/26/2008

From your post prior to comments: "...unrightfully forcing women to allow their bodies to be used as incubators..."

So--a woman chooses to have intercourse, carries the fetus for 8 1/2 months, then decides it's inconvenient, so kills it--and any law to the contrary unrightfully forces her to allow her body to be used as an incubator? At that point, abortion is either permissible or not, so which is it? How can the status of the unborn child not matter essentially to this question?

On "overrun:" The reality is that overwhelming physical force is arrayed to prevent you from implementing your (or my) libertarian vision at the present time. The fact is that if many millions of people enter, and if they're not particularly libertarian, then with birthright citizenship and "amnesty" they have a path to exerting political power in favor of more statism, and being (at least temporarily) at the bottom of the economic pile gives them an incentive to do so.

But let's say we've achieved a libertarian vision in the geographical region formerly known as the USA. Suppose lots of people are attracted to come here because of the vast wealth being generated and the high pay to be earned. They're welcomed by employers whose idea of high pay is a lot higher. But, suppose the migrant workers don't really have any principled affection for libertarianism? What happens after awhile if they become disgruntled and decide to do something about it? Suppose there's a great many of them? Suppose they have sympathizers among many property owners who don't much care for libertarianism either. Suppose there's a war? Suppose the libertarians lose the war? Suppose the whole issue wouldn't have arisen if borders were maintained and immigration limited?

I don't know that's what would happen. I want to move toward a much freer society. Right now, failing to control the borders quite possibly takes us in the wrong direction. Later, after the income tax has been eliminated, the empire dismantled, drug laws repealed, right to bear arms fully affirmed, etc., let's keep our eyes open as we take each next step, assuming we even get the chance.


Aeon J. Skoble - 3/26/2008

"But to be an anarchist, you have to oppose all government – including, of course, all government war."

Sorry to Godwin the thread, but on your view, if I were an anarcho-capitalist living in Britain in 1940, I'd be required to disapprove of the British army fighting against the Germans. I think that's false.

Here's another thought: let's all stop using the Bourne quote for a week. We've all read Crisis and Leviathan, and it's all true. But as my example suggests, the health of one state might be a good thing, depending on the alternative! In my hypo above, the health of Britain is far preferable to the health of the third reich.


Roderick T. Long - 3/26/2008

earlier you seemed to say it did hinge on this issue

I said the (best) arguments against abortion depend on regarding the fetus as a person. But the (best) arguments in defense of abortion don't depend on regarding the fetus as not a person.


Anthony Gregory - 3/25/2008

Roderick, you write, "Walter's argument for the permissibility of abortion doesn't depend one way or the other on whether the fetus is a human being with rights," yet earlier you seemed to say it did hinge on this issue. This is why I think someone could simultaneous oppose abortion restrictions but not see them as being as repressive as you do.


Anthony Gregory - 3/25/2008

I agree that anarchism is not pacifism. But you don't have to be a pacifist to oppose all government war, any more than you have to be a pacifist to oppose all government welfare. But to be an anarchist, you have to oppose all government – including, of course, all government war.

I am certainly not a pacifist. I believe people have a right to defend themselves against domestic criminals and foreign invaders. But I oppose all government war. Why? Because I'm a libertarian, and it it is wrong to initiate force against any individual for any "greater good," including "national defense" or "making the world safe for democracy."


Roderick T. Long - 3/25/2008

On abortion, the central issue is the status of the fetus/unborn child

I don't agree. Walter's argument for the permissibility of abortion doesn't depend one way or the other on whether the fetus is a human being with rights. Neither does Rothbard's. Neither does mine (I plan to put my 1993 abortion article online soon). Neither does Judith Thomson's, which for philosophers is the most famous defense of abortion. For a recent discussion of Thomson in the JLS, see http://mises.org/journals/jls/20_4/20_4_3.pdf.

Where to draw the line? I don't know, but if different people draw it at different places it does not disqualify some of them as libertarian.

I'm not sure against whom this last remark is directed. Nobody in the present debate has claimed that taking the wrong stand on abortion disqualifies one from counting as a libertarian.

Suppose we were to achieve a consensus for small, unobtrusive government, but large numbers of immigrants arrive with statist views. Suppose that a failure to limit the rate of immigration ran the palpable risk of being overrun by out-and-out statists?

What does "overrun" mean? The libertarian open-borders position is simply that if immigrant A wants to travel onto citizen B's land or otherwise engage in economic transactions with B, A needs to ask only B's permission and not also the government's.


Roderick T. Long - 3/25/2008

And for the Golden Mean between Aeon and Anthony, see:
http://mises.org/story/2310.
:-)


Allan Walstad - 3/25/2008

1. I suggest there is a difference between accusing a self-professed libertarian of not being a libertarian, versus challenging them on the consistency of their specific statements and opinions with their libertarianism. If John McCain were to call himself a libertarian, then merciless ridicule would be in order. But, within the movement, I think there's been too much impugning of libertarian bona fides already--you know, the old circular firing squad. My statement itself does not represent an accusation, just a suggestion.

2. I also suggest that libertarianism need not be viewed in a priori categorical terms. It can be viewed in relative terms--that is, in what direction does one wish to move? I would like to go a long way toward no government, no coercion, but I'd have to see how things are working out before following that path to its end. Perhaps then I'm merely a "classical liberal" but unfortunately the word "liberal" has been appropriated by advocates of watered-down socialism. But consider this: suppose it is the case that pure anarchy leads to chaos which leads to despotism? Perhaps it makes us vulnerable to invasion by envious socialist states or barbarian hordes. Then the maintenance of coercive, tax-based government flexing sufficient military strength for defense and maintenance of order is not un-libertarian; in fact, it might be considered more libertarian than anarcho-capitalism. Walter Block would argue tenaciously that we don't face such a choice, but that is an argument about consequences, not a simple matter of who's libertarian and who's not.

3. On abortion, the central issue is the status of the fetus/unborn child, and I'm sorry, but I do not see how libertarianism provides the answer. Libertarianism teaches non-aggression by humans against humans. Is the fetus (you can't even refer to it/him/her without seeming to take sides) a human being with the rights of a human being, or not? I can't accept that a freshly fertilized egg so qualifies, but surely a viable fetus within days of natural birth can no longer be treated like a tumor. Where to draw the line? I don't know, but if different people draw it at different places it does not disqualify some of them as libertarian.

4. On immigration, it took Ron Paul to get me past my years of party-line fealty to open borders. Yes, if we can approach a libertarian world in which borders don't matter much because government doesn't do much, then perhaps open borders it is. Or maybe not even then. Suppose we were to achieve a consensus for small, unobtrusive government, but large numbers of immigrants arrive with statist views. Suppose that a failure to limit the rate of immigration ran the palpable risk of being overrun by out-and-out statists?

5. On the war: The merits (i.e. lack thereof) of the Iraq war are simply too clear. Saddam Hussein did not attack us, did not have "weapons of mass destruction," did not pose a credible threat to the US. We've squandered 4,000 dead, 30,000 wounded, and a trillion bucks. Even from a crass realpolitik perspective, the war has set us back. That's not counting the Iraqi suffering and lives lost. You don't have to be a libertarian to be appalled. How a libertarian can support it is beyond me.


Aeon J. Skoble - 3/25/2008

"I deny that someone who is pro-war can possibly be an anarchist" - Sorry, that's incorrect. Anarchism isn't identical with pacifism. Sometimes it's necessary to use force, which isn't immoral when it's defensive or retaliatory. It's not a matter of what _our_ views are, as long as _other people_ are statist collectivists, they will act accordingly, and that sometimes means warfare. Simple example, raising the continental army to wage war against the British. I have never understood why a libertarian, even an anarchist, has to denounce that, Bourne notwithstanding. (Longer version of this is here: http://www.reasonpapers.com/pdf/28/rp_28_4.pdf


Anthony Gregory - 3/25/2008

Yes, I think the historical reality of both kinds of prohibition have to be kept in mind before comparing them.


David T. Beito - 3/25/2008

For what it is worth, in historically anti-abortion laws were generally much more poorly enforced than drug laws. Perhaps for personal reasons (wives, daughters, friends who need abortions, etc.), police were more likely to cast a blind to, or even protect, competent illegal abortionists.

For this reson in the decades before Roe v. Wade, the vast majority of abortions were performed by competent medical doctors. Moreover, when doctors were prosecuted, the penalties were generally light. This wasn't always true, of course, but as a general rule enforcement was more benign compared to that of the drug laws.


Roderick T. Long - 3/25/2008

Yes, but by this standard, the drug war, abortion laws, jury service, modern war (with stop loss) any many other government programs would be slavery. I thought the whole point was comparing relative degrees of slavery.

Sure. But I claim that threatening someone with X degree of force (be X a lot or a little) unless she allows her body and reproductive system to be used as an incubator for nine months and then undergo an intensely painful and risky extraction procedure is a more serious degree of slavery than threatening her with that same X degree of force unless she spends some boring time in a courtroom listening to a trial.

So there are two elements to the badness of any particular oppressive law. a) How serious is the oppression that it seeks to impose? b) How severe is the force by which it proposes to enforce this imposition? An abortion ban with moderate penalties may lose badness points on (b) but it still racks up plenty on (a). (Contrariwise, flogging people for jaywalking would get its badness more from (b) than from (a).)


Roderick T. Long - 3/25/2008

In the course of World War I, while Tucker was supporting it, he was no longer an anarchist. What can it even mean to support a war like that while claiming anarchism as your philosophy?

Well, Barnett has addressed that question directly. I don't agree with his argument, but it doesn't seem crazy to me.


Anthony Gregory - 3/25/2008


"Look, suppose the government reinstated slavery, but made the penalty for escaping a hefty fine rather than re-enslavement. Would that be better than historical slavery? Yes, much. Would it still be slavery? Yup."

Yes, but by this standard, the drug war, abortion laws, jury service, modern war (with stop loss) any many other government programs would be slavery. I thought the whole point was comparing relative degrees of slavery.


Roderick T. Long - 3/25/2008

We have to be careful when talking about current events and politics. This is up there with the rantings of Ward Churchill. Now, Mr. Churchill gets up to $20K per rant, but campus fees just don't seem to make it to libertarian speakers who engage in similar hyperbole.

I didn't mean it as hyperbole or rhetoric, I meant it as a straightforward argument. My argument for the extreme moral badness of abortion laws is their similarity to those other rights violations. If you think I shouldn't state the premises of my argument because they're politically incorrect, it's going to be hard to have a discussion.

Let us bring back a wee bit of the "honest men/women may disagree" without being disagreeable.

But I've been saying that "honest men/women may disagree." My whole point has been that there is no inconsistency between saying that a given deviation is really seriously bad and saying that honest men/women may disagree about it. It's just a sad fact of life that not all honest disagreements are about minor matters.


Roderick T. Long - 3/25/2008

Well, if you enforce abortion laws the way, say, Ron Paul proposed, they would not be nearly as bad as twenty years in prison.

Look, suppose the government reinstated slavery, but made the penalty for escaping a hefty fine rather than re-enslavement. Would that be better than historical slavery? Yes, much. Would it still be slavery? Yup.

You write that if Barnett said "liberty has to take a back seat because national security is so important," you'd agree he's not a libertarian. But this is essentially what proponents of war say: That war, for national security, is more important than the individual rights of foreigners slaughtered or Americans taxed.

That's what many proponents of war say, sure, but that's not what Barnett says, right?

If it were the late 18th century, and Rothbard was calling for the creation or expansion of government to wage a revolutionary war, he would not be a libertarian.

Rothbard may not have endorsed the "creation or expansion of government to wage a revolutionary war," but he did endorse a revolutionary war that had that effect. I'm not sure why it matters what century he did it in.


William J. Stepp - 3/25/2008

Rothbard viewed the American Revolution as a just war; he supported just wars. Whether it was a just war or not ir open to debate.
If you define a just war as one in which both the ends and all the means used must be just, it wasn't just, as the Americans employed taxation, inflation, loyalty oaths, etc.


Jonathan J. Bean - 3/25/2008

OK, we are talking about libertarian politics and not just academic navel gazing, correct? The last two (three?) LP candidates for president were all pro-life. I am pro-life and also libertarian, and libertarians clearly divide over whether abortion invokes the "nonaggression principle." (I'll save that debate for another day).

Clearly, making statement like the following are what alienate libertarians from each other -- and more importantly -- from the rest of the world:

"For a ban on abortion then counts as unrightfully forcing women to allow their bodies to be used as incubators – the moral equivalent of mass rape and mass enslavement. Taking into account the pain and risk involved in childbirth, an abortion ban also counts as the moral equivalent of mass torture."

We have to be careful when talking about current events and politics. This is up there with the rantings of Ward Churchill. Now, Mr. Churchill gets up to $20K per rant, but campus fees just don't seem to make it to libertarian speakers who engage in similar hyperbole.

Let us bring back a wee bit of the "honest men/women may disagree" without being disagreeable.

All right, throw me to the wolves for being a "deviationist." LOL


Anthony Gregory - 3/24/2008

"So Benjamin Tucker and Pëtr Kropotkin weren't anarchists (since they supported World War I), and Murray Rothbard wasn't an anarchist (since he supported the American revolutionary war)?"

In the course of World War I, while Tucker was supporting it, he was no longer an anarchist. What can it even mean to support a war like that while claiming anarchism as your philosophy? What if I claimed to be a pacifist but supported the Iraq war? I'd be so much in error as to render my self-description a fallacy.

If Rothbard favored the statist aspects of the Revolution, or cheered on the creation of a government in the late 19th century, he wouldn't be an anarchist. That seems reasonable to me.


Anthony Gregory - 3/24/2008

"True. I was abstracting from differences in methods of enforcement. Enforce abortion laws and drug laws the same way, and I think abortion laws count as worse. But if you enforce abortion laws less severely and drug laws more severely that changes things. Still, I think theyall count as serious."

Well, if you enforce abortion laws the way, say, Ron Paul proposed, they would not be nearly as bad as twenty years in prison. Furthermore, whether the women follow the law is important. If women kept having abortions, considering the risk of punishment less bad than the act of giving birth, then the effect of the law is not mass enslavement, torture, and rape – but rather whatever the penalty is. If women, on the other hand, carry the babies to term, rather than facing a relatively minor punishment, then I think it's unfair to assume, from their subjective valuation, that the pregnancy is on par with rape and torture. If indeed many women would have a baby rather than, say, pay a fine, then the effect on their liberty of the abortion law is akin to that of a fine, not to that of the mass torture and rape they'd be approximately willing to experience interchangeably with abortion.

As for your other argument about how either you have to consider abortion pure evil or abortion laws pure evil, you have a point, and yet I don't see why someone can't simultaneously hold both positions. I don't see the issue as being totally binary.

In terms of moral ballpark, I think abortion and abortion laws don't come close. Drop a bomb on a pregnant woman, and you've committed the worst possible act from both pro-life and pro-choice perspectives.

You write that if Barnett said "liberty has to take a back seat because national security is so important," you'd agree he's not a libertarian. But this is essentially what proponents of war say: That war, for national security, is more important than the individual rights of foreigners slaughtered or Americans taxed.

You write: "So if a significant number of paradigmatic libertarians have been pro-some-war (which is not quite the same thing as being pro-war per se), as they have (Rothbard himself supported the American revolutionary war, even though that did arguably grow the state), for me that counts against a deviation on war’s being a disqualification for libertarianhood."

If it were the late 18th century, and Rothbard was calling for the creation or expansion of government to wage a revolutionary war, he would not be a libertarian.


Roderick T. Long - 3/24/2008

I deny that someone who is pro-war can possibly be an anarchist

So Benjamin Tucker and Pëtr Kropotkin weren't anarchists (since they supported World War I), and Murray Rothbard wasn't an anarchist (since he supported the American revolutionary war)? I think that shows the absurd consequences we'd get if we insisted that the referent of terms like "anarchist" and "libertarian" be determined solely by abstract descriptions and not by consideration of paradigm exemplars. If none of Tucker, Kropotkin, and Rothbard counted as anarchists, I think the term would lose its meaning.

Rand denied she was a libertarian. And she was correct, for, as decent as she was on foreign policy – compared, at least, to many of her followers today – she was not a libertarian on the issue.

I agree that she was not a libertarian on that issue, but I deny the inference that she was not a libertarian period. (I also think her argument that she wasn't a libertarian was excessively Kripkean -- she refused to grant that she was one of those people, exemplars she had in mind, despite her fitting the definition -- while your argument that she wasn't a libertarian is excessively Russellian -- insistence on the definition despite her belonging to the exemplars. If pure Russellianism were right then we'd have to say that instead of discovering that dolphins are mammals, we discovered that dolphins don't exist; if pure Kripkeanism were right then we'd have to say that antelopes with misisng horns are unicorns if that's how the legend arose.)

I say more about why I regard deviationists on war as libertarians here.


Roderick T. Long - 3/24/2008

For some reason the sentence after

I think it matters what someone's reasons are for being pro-war. If Barnett said "liberty has to take a back seat because national security is so important," I'd agree that he wasn't a libertarian.

got lost. It should have been:

But Barnett argues (albeit mistakenly, IMHO) that his position on the war is justified on libertarian grounds.


Roderick T. Long - 3/24/2008

In practice, the enforcement of drug laws is also a case of mass torture, mass rape and, to some degree, mass murder.

True. I was abstracting from differences in methods of enforcement. Enforce abortion laws and drug laws the same way, and I think abortion laws count as worse. But if you enforce abortion laws less severely and drug laws more severely that changes things. Still, I think they all count as serious.

Thus, some libertarians might oppose abortion laws but not as strongly as they oppose other laws.

Okay, but I worry that you're making that slide I talked about between the content of a position and the strength with which one should hold it. The complexity of weighing the status of mother vs. the status of fetus might make one hold whatever position one reaches on the abortion issue with less conviction (I'm not actually convinced that it should, but let's say so), but it doesn't follow from that that the position one should reach should be a moderate position. If abortion is a rights-violation, then it's a really really bad one; if it's not a rights-violation, then restricting abortion counts not just as an abortion but as a really really bad one. Hence, as I see it, the only intellectually viable positions on abortion are "extremist," though they might be held weakly rather than strongly. (Compare: If O.J. killed Nicole then he's guilty of murder; if he didn't then he's not guilty of anything with regard to her death; in his case there's no room for an intermediate position such as guilty-of-involuntary-manslaughter; but one might still hold one's assessment of his guilt or innocence tentatively.)

Furthermore, comparing abortion prohibition to war is, I think, unfair. War in practice is not just mass murder – it is also mass torture, mass enslavement, mass rape, mass displacement, mass looting.

Well, I was willing to grant that war was worse than abortion laws. The question was whether they're in the same moral ballpark. So if one is merely mass torture/enslavement/rape while the other is mass torture/enslavement/rape/displacement/looting, then that looks to me like the same moral ballpark.

Indeed, if we include adamant warmongers in the libertarian family, why not include Chomsky, who is decent on civil liberties and war, but bad on economics?

I think it matters what someone's reasons are for being pro-war. If Barnett said "liberty has to take a back seat because national security is so important," I'd agree that he wasn't a libertarian.

I also think the paradigm-case argument has some force. I'm neither a pure Russellian (thinking that the reference of terms is determined solely by an associated description/definition) nor a pure Kripkean (thinking that the reference of terms is determined by a similarity to a paradigm exemplar or class of exemplars) but a mixture; I think that's just how language works. (Whereas your argument seems too close to pure-Russellian.) So if a significant number of paradigmatic libertarians have been pro-some-war (which is not quite the same thing as being pro-war per se), as they have (Rothbard himself supported the American revolutionary war, even though that did arguably grow the state), for me that counts against a deviation on war’s being a disqualification for libertarianhood.


Anthony Gregory - 3/24/2008

You say Barnett is an anarchist but Paul is not. Surely this begs the question. I deny that someone who is pro-war can possibly be an anarchist, any more than I can be an anarchist who supports taxation, regulation, a drug war and immigration restrictions enforced by a territorial monopoly. You can't be opposed to the state and endorse its worst projects. You can say that, in an ideal sense, Barnett believes in anarchy. Fine. But so do Marxists. They also look forward to a stateless future. What's the difference? Anarchism is not just an ends – it must color the means you are willing to endorse.

You also say you don't want to deny your past, hawkish self was a libertarian. Why not? What's wrong with that? You were a Randian? Rand denied she was a libertarian. And she was correct, for, as decent as she was on foreign policy – compared, at least, to many of her followers today – she was not a libertarian on the issue.

I, too, used to deviate on foreign policy. And I was not a libertarian back then. I agree with you that "Greater complexity of an issue may make deviation on that issue more excusable, but I didn’t think we were arguing about who is more blameworthy for a given deviation." Even if Barnett's deviation is in good faith, I think being wrong on war, especially a war like Iraq, is a disqualifying deviation.


Anthony Gregory - 3/24/2008

Roderick, you write: "I think any libertarian who holds the position that Walter and I hold on abortion is indeed committed to regarding a prohibition of abortion as an extremely serious violation of liberty, far more serious than, say, drug laws or economic regulations. For a ban on abortion then counts as unrightfully forcing women to allow their bodies to be used as incubators – the moral equivalent of mass rape and mass enslavement. Taking into account the pain and risk involved in childbirth, an abortion ban also counts as the moral equivalent of mass torture. Is mass rape/enslavement/torture a less serious violation of liberty than mass murder? Maybe so; but it certainly counts as being in the same moral ballpark."

These are very important points, and well taken, but I'm not sure the case is clearcut that pro-choice libertarians must consider abortion prohibition worse than drug prohibition. Several reasons:

1) In practice, the enforcement of drug laws is also a case of mass torture, mass rape and, to some degree, mass murder. Few libertarian abortion prohibitionists think abortion laws should be enforced the way drug laws tend to be: Few want women to be thrown in prison for ten or twenty years. If abortion would be made illegal, I doubt the punishments would be so draconian as the current drug penalties, which would mean that women who opted to break the law might have it better off, in many cases, than people who opted to break drug laws.

2) Even many libertarians who oppose abortion laws see it as a tough issue because of the existence of a fetus, which develops into a human being. With drug laws, there is no even possible argument for such a conflict in rights. I certainly oppose abortion laws across the board, but I can see a libertarian position that abortion is one of the most immoral and problematic actions that should nevertheless remain legal. Thus, some libertarians might oppose abortion laws but not as strongly as they oppose other laws.

Furthermore, comparing abortion prohibition to war is, I think, unfair. War in practice is not just mass murder — it is also mass torture, mass enslavement, mass rape, mass displacement, mass looting. It is all possible violations of libertarianism all wrapped up in one.

Moreover, war is, as Bourne said, the health of the state. If we were to divide all government policies into two or three categories, war would take up a whole one of them. Being bad on war is not like being bad on one or two or even five important issues. It is like being bad on half or a third of what libertarians should be sound on. It is akin, in my mind, to being a total economic authoritarian, but worse. Or, being bad on the whole of the police state -- and yet worse. Indeed, if we include adamant warmongers in the libertarian family, why not include Chomsky, who is decent on civil liberties and war, but bad on economics? He seems no further from the libertarian ideal than a pro-war libertarian who is good on economics and civil liberties but bad on war.


Roderick T. Long - 3/24/2008

I've also added a reply to some of the comments on Walter's post.