Blogs > Liberty and Power > Will Keith Halderman Back Up His Charge?

Jan 22, 2008

Will Keith Halderman Back Up His Charge?




[cross-posted at Austro-Athenian Empire]

I’ve argued that the decision as to whether to support Ron Paul’s candidacy involves a trade-off between long-term and short-term gains; that there is no one rationally compulsory way for libertarians to resolve this trade-off; that my own commitments give me reason not to support his candidacy, but that nevertheless I wish him success.

Keith Halderman evidently thinks I am lying. That is, he apparently believes not only that my position as described above is mistaken (which of course it may well be) but that it is not my real position. Or so I infer from a recent L&P thread in which he writes, addressing me:

let us be clear about this, your time preference is not to ignore Paul’s effort because you do not think he can succeed, your time preference is to actively work against his success

This is a surprising assertion. After all, here’s a sampling of my remarks about Ron Paul over the past year (from posts here, here, here, and here):

1. Most of my libertarian comrades seem to think that Ron Paul is either a) the Second Coming, or b) the Apocalypse. ... I’m somewhere in between: I have a lot of serious problems with his candidacy, but I admit I’m also gratified every time I see his poll numbers rising.

2. I have plenty of problems with Ron Paul – most notably on immigration, abortion, and gay rights. But he is astronomically superior to any other Republican candidate out there; I wish him well, and hope he shakes up the GOP plenty.

3. I neither endorse nor oppose Paul (I disagree with him on too many issues to officially “endorse” him; but I vastly prefer him to all his rivals and thus wish his campaign well).

4. Paul, despite his deviations, would likely pursue policies whose direct results would be significantly more libertarian than otherwise. ... I think that’s a reason to hope he does well, and I do hope he does well. In fact, I will go so far as to say that if there were a button such that pushing it would guarantee Paul’s election … then I would happily push it.

5. I don’t support Ron Paul’s candidacy, then, because my own talents, proclivities, and commitments lie with the Agorist and left-libertarian projects, and I value the promotion of those projects over the short-term benefits that Paul’s candidacy might gain at the expense of those projects. But I can’t see that this preference is compulsory for everybody. Even if every libertarian ought to be an Agorist and a cultural lefty ... it seems to me that it does not follow that every libertarian ought to make the trade-off between those long-run projects and the possible short-run gains from Paul’s candidacy the same way I do.

I think it’s fairly clear, then, that my position is not fairly describable as “to actively work against his success.” Keith Halderman’s description of my position is baseless.

I’ve repeatedly asked him to offer evidence for his claim, but so far he has made no response. Well, perhaps he hasn’t looked in the comments section to his last post lately. So I’m moving my query to L&P’s main page.

Keith, please either back up your charge or retract it.



comments powered by Disqus

More Comments:


Roderick T. Long - 1/27/2008

I am not indifferent [to] truth or falsity

You said it dodn't matter whether my arguments were right or wrong. How is that not indifference to truth or falsity?

he, whether he is perfect or not, may just be our last chance to peacefully avoid an eventual totalitarian society

You seem to be assuming that electoral means are more likely to be effective than anarchistic means. I think Charles Johnson just offered a pretty good argument to the contrary.


Anthony Gregory - 1/27/2008

I love Ron Paul, but I honestly think there's no way that the thing preventing him from being elected will be Roderick Long and other honest critics of his speaking their minds on blogs like Liberty and Power. The vast majority of Americans do not want Paulian libertarianism, or even something more moderate. I would certainly take a Paulian state over this madness, and Roderick said he would push that button as well, but it is true that Americans still, for the most part, support the welfare-warfare state. I think that it's very possible Ron Paul has helped propel something that can help make the future brighter. But I think it's a trap of undue short-term optimism to think the military industrial complex, Federal Reserve, income tax, war on drugs, US empire, national security state, New Deal, Great Society and War on Terror have much chance of soon being abolished by a national vote. Nothing remotely like that has happened in this country.


Keith Halderman - 1/26/2008

I am not indifferent truth or falsity I am indifferent to this particular bit of pointless blather put out by you that acts to obstruct the accomplishment of something necessary. Ron Paul will probably not become president because their are too many self-absorbed people in this world, indifferent to the suffering his loss will cause, who do not see that he, whether he is perfect or not, may just be our last chance to peacefully avoid an eventual totalitarian society.


Roderick T. Long - 1/26/2008

You are missing the entire point whether your arguments are right or wrong does not matter the problem is that you are making them in the first place.

Well, Keith, if by your own admission you are indifferent to truth and falsity then it seems pointless to continue this (or any) discussion with you.


Robert Paul - 1/26/2008

These are just different strategies. Even Keith Halderman's argument, although understandably being ridiculed here, could be correct, but I doubt anyone could prove it.


Brad Spangler - 1/25/2008

I'd like to see Hoppe apply argumentation ethics to that one!


Charles Johnson - 1/25/2008

"You are missing the entire point whether your arguments are right or wrong does not matter the problem is that you are making them in the first place." - Keith Halderman


David Gordon - 1/25/2008

I'm a strong supporter of Ron Paul, but I learned a lot from Roderick's careful analysis. The principal thesis of Mill's On Liberty remains true even during important political campaigns.


Keith Halderman - 1/25/2008

You are missing the entire point whether your arguments are right or wrong does not matter the problem is that you are making them in the first place. That's the Ivory Tower that Ms Mercer is talking about and we as a people can not afford that anymore. You think statism is popular now wait until we are in the middle of a depression, look what happened the last time. What about all of the people who are going to needlessly die as America maintains it overseas empire don't they count for anything? Is anyone other than Ron Paul going to do anything to stop these things from happening?


Brad Spangler - 1/25/2008

It seems mighty obtuse -- akin to saying that because Mr. X mentioned that Y is illegal, Mr. X OUTLAWED Y himself.


Jeff Riggenbach - 1/24/2008

"What angers me about this whole discourse is that it reminds of Libertarian Party meetings where anytime someone wanted to do something concrete we spent hours discussing the libertarian purity of the proposal and nothing ever got done."

Yeah! What could be more exasperating than a bunch of libertarians who don't realize that the really important thing is that they *do something,* not whether what they do is libertarian?

Exasperatedly,

JR


Anthony Gregory - 1/24/2008

I too think Roderick's criticisms are reasonable, and in fact helpful to the Ron Paul Revolution as a whole, which is, as Ron always points out, fundamentally about the ideas of liberty.


Less Antman - 1/24/2008

Oh, come off it: don't tell me they call you Rod Long because you're left-handed!


Roderick T. Long - 1/24/2008

I'll admit to being miffed at his refusal to lend his name to the YouTube porn video

Yeah, I'm sure a porn video featuring a bearded middle-aged hugely overweight philosophy geek would have been a big draw.


Less Antman - 1/24/2008

Not at all: Rod is actively undermining and opposing the international Trotskyite-anarchist conspiracy by failing to give it his unconditional support.

I've been an active supporter of the Paul campaign, both with my time and money, but I must say I find Rod's position to be entirely reasonable, fair-minded, and neutral (although I'll admit to being miffed at his refusal to lend his name to the YouTube porn video with Ron Paul Girl: it would have been an awesome fundraiser for the campaign).


Roderick T. Long - 1/24/2008

What angers me about this whole discourse is that it reminds of Libertarian Party meetings where anytime someone wanted to do something concrete we spent hours discussing the libertarian purity of the proposal and nothing ever got done

Well, I gave an argument. Maybe it's a good argument and maybe it's a bad one, but I notice you haven't actually attempted to respond to the reasons I actually gave. You simply start from the premise that my argument is mistaken and then abuse me for it. I doubt that Ron Paul would appreciate support of that kind.

One last thing Roderick Long I think it is very condescending of you to give me permission to support a presidential candidate

So now my arguing that something is permissible counts as my giving you permission? I think you have your directions of fit mixed up.


Charles Johnson - 1/24/2008

In other words, Comrade Halderman, Roderick's reasons for failing to whole-heartedly support Chairman Ron's Great Libertarian Electoral Revolution may be subjectively neutral and nuanced, but clearly his position is objectively pro-fascist.

I also hear he's a member of the international Trotskyist-anarchist conspiracy.


Keith Halderman - 1/24/2008

But that is precisely the point the Ron Paul campaign is about politics and we all have to live with the results of politics whether we like or not. So, if you are laying out reasons not to support Paul no matter how subtle, balanced, and academic your overall argument is then you are undercutting his chances for success. What angers me about this whole discourse is that it reminds of Libertarian Party meetings where anytime someone wanted to do something concrete we spent hours discussing the libertarian purity of the proposal and nothing ever got done. Back then you could excuse it because that party had virtually no chance of winning. However, when someone like Paul starts raising money and generating new supporters the way Dr. Paul has then there is no excuse. One last thing Roderick Long I think it is very condescending of you to give me permission to support a presidential candidate who is a thousand times better from the standpoint of protecting my liberty and the free market then any other Democrat or Republican contender in my lifetime.


Nathan Shepperd - 1/23/2008

If this whole Ron Paul business doesn't show how evil politics is, I don't know what would.


Brad Spangler - 1/23/2008

re: <em>"How does 'X is neither forbidden nor mandatory but optional' count as an attack on X?"</em>

Because when a mob is being whipped up into a frenzy in support of "mandatory x", anything which isn't somehow "mandatory x" will be regarded as an "attack".

It doesn't matter how logical or nuanced your position might be, Roderick. This is the part in the Western in which the misunderstood protagonist is seated on the horse with his hands tied to the saddle horn and the noose around his neck.


Roderick T. Long - 1/23/2008

You have a strange idea of what counts as an attack. The structure of my argument was this: "Here are some reasons in favour of X. Here are reasons against X. Which set of reasons is weightier depends on individual context." This by your lights is an attack? How is it more an attack than it is a defense?

Some libertarians think supporting Paul is rationally mandatory. Other libertarians think supporting Ron Paul is rationally forbidden. I was arguing that both sides are mistaken. By what principle of interpretation do you transmogrify this into support for one side? How does "X is neither forbidden nor mandatory but optional" count as an attack on X? I mean, seriously!


Keith Halderman - 1/23/2008

What did Shakespeare say about protesting too much? As far as not responding to you on my post it is called letting you have the last word. My time preference was to move on to other subjects, but since you insist I stand by my statement that you are actively opposing Ron Paul. You can not shirk responsibility for writing and posting arguments against supporting him. You wrote “I don’t support Ron Paul’s candidacy, then, because my own talents, proclivities, and commitments lie with the Agorist and left-libertarian projects, and I value the promotion of those projects over the short-term benefits that Paul’s candidacy might gain at the expense of those projects. But I can’t see that this preference is compulsory for everybody.” Now I will admit that this is a pretty wishy-washy attack but it is an attack nevertheless. You are actively giving people reasons to not support Ron Paul and you could have kept them to yourself. Also, your defense in this post of some left handed compliments that you put up in the past is weak.