Blogs > Cliopatria > The Unreported

Nov 16, 2005

The Unreported




Over at Crooked Timber, Henry Farrell offers a discussion, among other things, of whether antiwar protesters ever spat on soldiers returning from Vietnam.

Quoting from a recent article by Rick Perlstein, Farrell (and others in the comments) accept a proposition that the lack of contemporaneous media accounts of spitting indicate that their later appearance in historical narrative is mythological, and politically interested mythology at that.

I think this is a dubious way to understand the relationship between memory, history and reportage, and that most historians would not accept the evidentiary rule being proposed.

National and global mass media at any time in the last century are porous to everyday life in many respects: many practices, incidents, identities, discrete moments of great interest to historians which appear tangibly in other kinds of documentary evidence or in oral testimony were not represented in mass media. Even under the most optimal, uncensored conditions, journalists are not panoptic, nor are they prophetic. What becomes interesting to us at a later date, what seems to exemplify particular eras, is sometimes wholly unanticipated and unnoticed in contemporary news coverage.

Or, alternatively, is seen as "unworthy" of coverage in a particular time and place. We know full well now that many reporters knew about John F. Kennedy's sexual escapades, but none thought it appropriate to report. You could not say, reading the papers of that time, that Kennedy was sexually promiscuous; it would appear, by contrast, that Bill Clinton was vastly more promiscuous, if you just went by what appeared in the media. The difference is not in the phenomena but in the nature of what constituted news in each era. To some extent, in the context of antiwar spitting, some of those commenting on the CT entry and Perlstein's essay are forgetting the relative conservatism of American newspapers even late in the history of the Vietnam War on questions of antiwar activism.

More importantly, what is remembered, even if mythologized, sometimes has a deeper basis. When I studied "urban legends" concerned with commodities, for example, I was interested to read an essay by folklorist Gary Alan Fine that tackled the common presumption in the literature on urban legends and rumors that these were entirely invented (if interesting and telling) narrative. Fine observed that in some cases, it was possible to find literal evidence that something rather like the common form of the legend had actually happened somewhere once or twice, if not commonly so. (Say, for example, fast food that turned out to be something other than what it was advertised, the old "deep fried rat" story.)

The discussion also reminds me of an ancient methodological dispute in the writing of African history, now largely routinized and resolved. Once upon a time, you had structuralist anthropologists who argued that formal oral traditions in African societies had little formal historical content, and were largely reflective of either political and social issues in contemporary societies, or were moral and instructive stories about deeply universal human problems (kinship, for example). Then came historians who argued that formal oral traditions had quite literal historical content, and beyond that, historians and anthropologists who learned to treat stories, reported speech, conversation and rumor as historical evidence whose value couldn't be reduced or subtracted to simple literal stories about "what actually happened". The assumption that comes out of such work is that most of what people commonly talk about and believe to be true has some grounding in their actual experience of historical change, but also in ongoing contests over meaning, representation and knowledge which service existing social interests and factions.

That's all somewhat vaporous. The point in this case is whether or not the stories of spitting were reported in the newspaper may be a poor guide to whether or not they happened. Many people would now accept that an artist tried to throw Robert McNamara off a ferry at Martha's Vineyard (the story becomes credible as historical knowledge after reading or hearing about Paul Hendrickson's book on McNamara), but the incident wasn't reported at the time. Many events transpire outside of the eyes of the media, go unremarked upon in the public sphere, but travel through and within the knowledge of everyday life. As they travel, they become elaborated, disconnected from their original moment in historical time, acquire mythological and partisan encrustations, become a part of common sense. The distance travelled is sometimes from a morally ambiguous, complex, socially idiosyncratic truth about small incidents to a simplified and misused fiction, which is really what Perlstein is getting at. But the methodological standard proposed that would allow us to split the difference cleanly isn't a terribly useful one: historical knowledge does not permit such convenient disentanglements.



comments powered by Disqus

More Comments:


Ralph E. Luker - 11/17/2005

Mr. Lederer, Does reproducing here at Cliopatria one of 11 Amazon reviews of Lembcke's book represent your tit for tat response to what you regard as his unrepresentative research? Am I surprised that the only Amazon review you chose to reproduce here is the one that fits most closely with all of the predispositions to belief that you held before this conversation began?


John H. Lederer - 11/17/2005

This review is on Amazon's page for the book:


"Jerry Lembcke's work makes him sound like a wannabe, June 7, 2005
Reviewer: T. Cox (Pontiac, MO) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
I have been researching the homecoming stories of Vietnam veterans for the past three years or so for a Masters thesis, and Mr. Lembcke contacted me concerning my "possibly fictional" memories from veterans. I have to say that I don't believe all of these soldiers lied about what was done to them at the airports. There are pictures of soldiers being hit with tomatoes and eggs, which are large enough to photograph well, but Lembcke seems to base his claim on the fact that there are no pictures of anyone spit on. How well does spit photograph anyway? And how quick would you have to be to capture it? I know security guards who worked in airports who witnessed it, I know a few protestors who claim to have done it, and I have talked to hundreds of soldiers who claimed it happened to them, either at the airport or out in public.
Mass hysteria? I don't believe ir. And interestingly enough, Lembcke does not include in his book what branch of service he was in, or the dates, or his MOS. I have yet to read something, even emails, from Vietnam veterans who do not include that basic info on all their correspondence and writings.
What is he hiding? Save your money. Read the books written by the real Vietnam veteans who can tell you what happened to them, unanalyzed by a "sociologist professor" who claims to have been there. Another point strongly made by over 140 veterans I spoke to about this book: A true Vietnam veteran does not disparage the stories of his fellow veterans and call them liars.Lembcke's work does not ring true. I have names of veterans this happened to, not, as he suggested, just veterans who know someone. They know where they were when it happened, and how it happened. They know how they felt when it happened. Lembcke's work takes away what little dignity is left to the true Vietnam Veterans. Don't give him the satisfaction of knowing another person bought his lies."


Alan Allport - 11/17/2005

There is a magnitude of difference between being called a baby-killer and being spat upon.

Yes, I'm sure there is. Though no doubt neither is a particularly pleasant experience for the recipient. Nor IMHO is either action defensible.


Timothy James Burke - 11/17/2005

Thanks, Rick. It does sound like a powerful argument. I would only observe that the emergence of a highly disciplined, structured trope at a date removed from its original event is not necessarily a reason in and of itself to view the trope as fictional (and you suggest that Lembcke is aware of this).

One of the books in my own field that makes this point very well is Carolyn Hamilton's Terrific Majesty, on the history of representations and "memories" of Shaka, the founder of the Zulu Empire, in South Africa. Hamilton is attentive to the historical conditions around the production of memory in particular eras, but also suggests that the "original history" of Shaka is always embedded somewhere within later representations, even when those representations were highly ideological or interested in some fashion. Not that we can separate out the original history in any neat way, but that it is also a mistake to take such later narratives as pure inventions or fictions: they have histories and worlds inside of them.


Rick Perlstein - 11/17/2005

The more convincing evidence in the book that develops the non-spitting argument, Jerry Lembcke's "The Spitting Image," is that a very ritualized version of the spitting stories emerged at an identifiable time, under identifiable conditions, removed in time from the Vietnam War: the "event"--the formalization of the myth--basically took shape (if memory serves; forgive me for not having the book handy now) the later '70s or even the '80s. A similar dynamic took place with Fonda stories.

Also note the following: Lembcke also quite convincingly demonstrates that the kind of generalized hazing and abuse that the trope of spitting points to did indeed occur and was documented--but the perpetrators were World War II veterans who considered Vietnam vets punks for losing "their" war. Lembcke suggests that an ideological inversion of these stories eventually came to pass, so that anti-war demonstrators were cast as the ones "really" doing the "spitting."

Consult his book for details. I recommend both books, though Lembcke's much more strongly.


Jonathan Dresner - 11/17/2005

Even the lack of contemporaneous evidence doesn't entirely convince me. What does seem problematic is that there's a big difference (particularly in urban legends) between first person and second-hand accounts: first-hand accounts of being spat upon (or confessions of spitting, which would even be better from an evidentiary standpoint) would be, I think, reasonably credible evidence, even if they were after the fact, as long as they didn't conflict with other evidence in the record (i.e., the people involved weren't actually elsewhere, etc.). But I've never run across or seen cited an actual first person account of spitting: to be fair, I'm not an Americanist or particularly interested in Vietnam War history, so the depth of my reading is pretty thin. But it's the kind of thing I'd look for.


Hiram Hover - 11/17/2005

As Henry points out, it's not just the lack of contemporaneous media reports, but of *any* kind of contemporaneous evidence.

Does that positively prove it never happened? No.

To quote my favorite cabinet secretary named after a card game--the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

But is it reason to treat the appearance of these stories well after the fact with a good deal of skepticism? Yes. Especially since it's clear that they owe their force today to their current rhetorical and ideological utility, and not to the fact that they may contain a kernel of truth (in the something-like-this-happened-to-somebody-somewhere sense.)


Louis N Proyect - 11/17/2005

There is a magnitude of difference between being called a baby-killer and being spat upon. The latter is against the law. It is like being punched or kicked. You really have to work yourself into a frenzy to attack somebody physically. A chance encounter in an airport or on the street is not likely to generate such a level of aggression. I think the worst thing about the spitting urban legend is that it psychologically off.


Alan Allport - 11/17/2005

I personally know of two Vietnam-era soldiers - level-headed folks with no particular axe to grind on the subject - who report that, while they were not actually spat upon while in uniform, they were assailed by bystanders in public as 'baby killers.' I have no reason to believe that they are telling anything other than the truth.

Whether or not these were representative acts of the time is not something I'm competent to judge.


Louis N Proyect - 11/17/2005

This story always struck me as implausible. There were never any protests at airports. I speak from experience as somebody who helped to organize demonstrations from 1967 until the war ended. Leaving aside organized protests, how plausible does it seem that a lone antiwar activist would spit on somebody who had just spent 2 years or so dodging bullets in Vietnam? You can lose teeth that way.


Jeremy Dupertuis Bangs - 11/16/2005

So, not in public and maybe not spitting. What I remember from the 1968 Democratic convention police action in Chicago is that some anti-war protestors spat at police (shortly before lines of police charged, beating anyone in reach with truncheons, and breaking arms, cameras, etc.). No one spat at the Vietnam veterans, because they were among the protestors. I don't think much of that got reported in the main press; but it could have been the sort of action that reappeared, transformed for the purposes of pro-war propaganda, as if protestors had been spitting on returning soldiers.


Timothy James Burke - 11/16/2005

In terms of actual scenarios, it seems entirely possible to me that some of what is now remembered as a common behavior happened in quiet, out-of-the-way and idiosyncratic moments in everyday life, not in moments of public spectacle visible to and reported in the mass media. It might also not be spitting but something else, some other sign of revulsion, rejection, condemnation. Not at protests, but in everyday life, in small moments of unkindness. So that it's right to suggest the literal incidents commonly regarded as true might not be literally true as they're described, but equally I question whether finding an absence in the mass media is itself a compelling "dog that does not bark in the night" that closes the curtain on the mythology in some final or complete way.


Henry Farrell - 11/16/2005

Tim - I've had conversations with historians, perhaps more conservative (with a small c) who refuse point blank to rely on later reminiscences in the belief that these are likely to be biased and inaccurate. Both the historians who've said this to me were diplomatic historians concerned with events in the 1960s and 1970s - perhaps this is a sub-discipline specific norm.

But to the more specific point - I don't think that your explanation is at all a likely one. Newspapers, conservative or not, did cover other forms of protest and abuse, including, if my memory of the book is correct, spitting on Vietnam veterans by WWII vets who were disgusted with them for other reasons. Why would hippies spitting on veterans receive no contemporary mention whatsoever, while other forms of protest did? And we're not only talking about newspapers - no letters, no speeches by veterans' associations, or other forms of contemperaneous evidence either. Nor do I think that the McNamara story is an apt analogy - it's a single, isolated incident rather than a purportedly widespread phenomenon. Far more likely to pass without journalistic mention. It seems to me wildly improbable that a practice of this kind, which would surely have attracted some contemporary notice and condemnation should have passed entirely unremarked at the time. I think that you're taking a reasonable epistemological position - that oral evidence can be highly valuable - and pushing it to support a contention which is highly unlikely on the face of it. At the least, I think that you would want to have a much more developed argument about the norms which led to this going entirely unmentioned, and evidence supporting this argument, before concluding as you do.