Blogs > Cliopatria > Some Religious and Political Bloviations

Aug 21, 2005

Some Religious and Political Bloviations




Simon Worrell's essay,"The Fanatics Who Founded America," London Times, 20 August, first draws a parallel between early America's Pilgrims and the Muslim extremists said to live in contemporary England and, secondly, argues that those Pilgrims poisoned the wellspring of American culture with their own religious extremism, manifest in the contemporary Religious Right. This doesn't bode well for Worrell's forthcoming book on the Pilgrims. As a critic of the article points out in a letter to the Times, England's constitution put Anglican bishops in a House of Lords with real secular power and the Pilgrims insisted that religious authority must have no direct power of secular rule. Overwhelmed by his sense of the contemporary relevance of his subject, says the critic, Worrell gets virtually every point of fact wrong about the Pilgrims.

When History News Network featured Thomas C. Reeves's blog post,"The Temptation of Secularism," on its mainpage this past week, the negative reaction was widespread, not only in comments there, but elsewhere on the net. I've already cited the reaction of our colleague, Miriam Burstein, at Little Professor. Despite Reeves's claims, she insisted, it is possible for agnostics and atheists to be happy. But Burstein's rejoinder was near an endorsement compared with P. Z. Myers's"Has HNN No Standards?" at Pharyngula. Reeves's essay is"a piece of hackwork from some conservative religious looney working in one of those right-wing think-tanks" says P. Z.

Cliopatria's readers may recall that I am no apologistfor Tom Reeves. His blogging irritates me because he systematically ignores the comments of readers on what he has said. In the blogosphere, that's arrogant and insulting. I pointed out that in his 30 year career at the University of Wisconsin, Parkside, he antagonized all of his colleagues and, when he took a comfortable retirement from its faculty, Reeves attacked his institution and his former students. That seemed to me, at the least, ungracious. My criticism of his blogging was occasioned by his misrepresentation of evidence. For my trouble, I was accused of being a"dishonorable""McCarthyite." Reeves was forced to correct himself only after I withdrew a charge that he was a"liar." I am no apologist for Tom Reeves. [Read More ...]

On the other hand, P. Z. should have known that he was attacking HNN for what was merely a blog post that happened to get featured on the mainpage. I have no idea why it was featured there, but worse characters than Tom Reeves -- people like David Horowitz, who have no reasonable credentials at all -- have had their work presented there. Reeves is a much published historian at the end of a substantial career. If he wants to bloviate, he has every much right to do so as P. Z. Myers has. P. Z. is a much more interesting blogger, but I can't find any evidence that he has actually produced much scholarship in his own field.

Reeves would be better off if he shunned those generalizations that he's drawn to about the degeneration of western civilization since the Enlightenment. They're mostly gaseous and nauseous escapes – the kind for which polite people say"Excuse me" or"I beg your pardon." But I suspect that the biologist in P. Z. understands that those things come naturally to most of us. What's up P. Z.'s craw is that Reeves is a bloviating theist and there's been a lot of gas escaping from bloviating theists lately. I suspect what P. Z. most resents – what really gets his dander up – is that Reeves understands that there are no true atheists. All of us have a highest loyalty, a highest majesty, whom we serve – whether it is self-interest, material comfort, national interest, or some marketplace. That highest loyalty is our g_d and P. Z.'s got one whether he admits it or not. A major thrust of all western monotheism – Judaism, Christianity, and Islam – is its prophetic iconoclasm. And, poorly framed or not, Reeves's latest bloviation is in that tradition. He denounces false g_ds in the name of a one true G_d. It's understandable, I suppose, that a self-styled atheist like P. Z. wouldn't think well of Tom's denunciation of idols."Of course, there are no g_ds, but yours is false, too," he'd claim. But P. Z. would be right about that only if he had no ultimate loyalty and I suspect that he's got at least one.

The other piece that caught my attention yesterday was the New York Times"complete coverage" of"The Evolution Debate." Especially, I was intrigued by Jodi Wilgoren's"Politicized Scholars Put Evolution on the Defensive." The article intrigued me for three reasons:
1) because the scholars on whom it focuses cannot be easily dismissed. Stephen C. Meyer, vice president and senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, has a doctorate in the history and philosophy of science from Cambridge. Another fellow, William Dembski has a doctorate in mathematics from the University of Chicago. Even Edward J. Larson, the distinguished historian of the Scopes Monkey trial, was affiliated with the Discovery Institute at one time.
2) the Discovery Institute does not repudiate the theory of evolution. It remains the prevailing interpretation, the one for which there is evidence and the authority of substantial agreement. They know, too, that revelation is not evidence. Thus, they argue – not to ban the teaching of evolution or the adoption of some intelligent design curriculum. There is none. They argue for teaching the controversy. That there is no controversy among biologists remains a problem for them.
3) the other thing that struck me, personally, is that in some odd way, these are my peeps. In the mid-1960s and early 1970s, when I was an active Republican, Bruce Chapman and George Gilder were leaders in the Ripon Society, an organization of progressive young Republicans. They co-authored an analysis of the disastrous Goldwater campaign, The Party That Lost Its Head. I was one of the young members of the Ripon Society who hoped that the party's future lay with the heirs to Nelson Rockefeller, John Lindsay, Mark Hatfield, Jacob Javitz, William Scranton, Edward Brooke, and many others. That was before the Dixiecrats joined my party, before the rise of the radical right, before the Reagan revolution. I see that Bruce and George have accommodated themselves to political change fairly well. I haven't.



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Irfan Khawaja - 8/4/2006

Well, I'm no apologist for Ralph Luker :-), and no apologist for ID either, but I happen to agree with point 1 under Ralph's response to the NYT Wilgoren article. In fact, I think he understates the case. The Wilgoren article seems to suggest, partly by implication, that ID theorists are essentially political in interest and orientation, and that the ID movement is basically a political phenomenon.

Not true. I was a grad student in philosophy at Notre Dame in the 1990s, and was surrounded by philosophers with an ID outlook (e.g., Alvin Plantinga, Peter Van Inwagen; Philip Johnson and Michael Behe were frequent guests at ND). Johnson aside, their interests and orientation were fundamentally theological and philosophical, not political.

Personally I thought (and think) that their criticisms of evolutionary theory were badly off-kilter, but Plantinga, Van Inwagen et. al. are solidly mainstream philosophers with substantial scholarship to their name. There is no ignoring them in philosophy, and no ignoring their support for ID. Remarkably, Wilgoren's article makes no mention of them, or of their followers, and that strikes me as a telling and problematic omission. Defenders of evolutionary theory are badly underestimating the nature of their adversary. After awhile, they're going to have to learn that bluster doesn't cut it. They better evolve--and learn fast.


E. Simon - 8/23/2005

One last point - on the Dawkins piece - I think it is important to note that replacing what is not known (i.e. "ignorance") with what was previously the domain of faith is actually a degrading thing to religion. I'd like to think that religious or theological ideas have an important place in the human experience, but using them to fill gaps in knowledge is to equate faith with ignorance. Not an uplifting realization for those who feel that religion is under attack.

In the past, it was science (Galileo) that necessarily initiated the conflicts between the two realms. When they have come into conflict, science has generally won. Again, it is not faith, but past experience that tells me that by stupidly striking out with this unnecessary and unwarranted move of ID, faith is ultimately relegating itself to further obscurity - only this time the choice to do so was actively sought on its own behalf. Science didn't even come looking for this battle. How unfortunate.


E. Simon - 8/23/2005

And confirmed this time by (at least one) second party observation. It's good to go!


E. Simon - 8/23/2005

In case I misunderstood Dr. Chamberlain's argument, or more precisely, whom he was implicating in not providing "a way to tell the difference between the two," the definition is very simple. That which can be directly observed under defined, controlled conditions with reproducible results is what we are talking about.

I really do think there is a fine line between naturalistic observation (for those familiar with the history of terms used to describe [natural] science), and the supernatural. Prefixes matter. Things would be easier if it were mere etymology that led to this sense of confusion, but I gather it was, unfortunately, something even more biased and ingrained than the conditions that lead to changes in how language is used.


Jonathan Dresner - 8/23/2005

Link is fixed again (I swear, it worked last time...)


E. Simon - 8/23/2005

I don't know if it was double-checked, but with the "amp" left in, the link still leads to the wrong page. To redirect, the "amp" would need to be deleted.


E. Simon - 8/23/2005

Thanks - ! It may be a lampoon, but hopefully at least one that is humorous and more pertinent to the line of argumentations used than references to teapots.


Sharon Howard - 8/23/2005

Caleb, thank you so much for expressing so beautifully what I was getting too angry to say right. I'm, as always, awed and humbled by your good sense and kindness and insight.

And Ralph, I'm sorry for getting so angry so quickly and stupidly. (As I've already said to you privately, but I just think I should add something public.) Truly, I never meant to do anything that would inhibit your thought or speech. And you're quite right. I selected from what you said, the bit that offended me, <em>because</em> it offended me, and rather stopped thinking at that point. Ugh. And I went on to express myself rather offensively. (For the record, unequivocally, I have no doubts that you are a true Christian. Or that there have been plenty of true Christians in the last 2000 years.)


Jonathan Dresner - 8/23/2005

Link is fixed.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/23/2005

Caleb, You make a very important point. The trivial arguments have been made, not by Jon or Sharon, but by P. Z. and others. I don't think that Sharon or Jon would associate themselves with the kind of superficial knockoffs that P. Z. and other well known atheists on the net revel in. There is a kind of atheist trivialization ("do you believe in the tooth fairy?") that passes itself off as sophistication, when it seems to me not much above rank ignorance.


Caleb McDaniel - 8/23/2005

Ralph, I have to confess (even though it will probably reflect poorly on me!) that I haven't been closely following all the exchanges regarding Reeves' post, having just returned from being out of town over the weekend. But if the debate has come down to comparisons between God, football, teapots and mermaids, then I can understand why you would take offense.

Sharon and Jonathan in particular, of course, haven't been making such comparisons. And far from calling theists "kooks," I think they have always showed great respect for theists and conducted debates about the existence of God in a much higher tone than that. I don't think they have to answer for every statement made by an atheist, any more than you have to answer for every statement made by a theist.

I think Sharon and Jonathan (and again, I can only speak for them provisionally) can understand why a theist would be offended if his deeply held beliefs about God were compared to one's love for a housecat. And for the same reason, I can understand why they would be offended if they felt that we or anyone else regarded their own deeply held beliefs as nothing more than fancies. As I said in my previous comment, though, I don't think that you or they intend to trivialize the other's beliefs in such ways.


E. Simon - 8/23/2005

If an inadvertent Onion link - the one before the ubiquitous semicolon - offends, simply add "n=2" to the URL to reach the intended page.


E. Simon - 8/23/2005

Yes, this is exactly the case. If and when ID stops rejecting evidentiary standards, the scientific method, and empiricism altogether, then they can be taken seriously as a science. Of course, that's about as likely to happen as scientists demanding to change the course of a debate within theology, and just as offensive, and just as sure to be unsuccessful, not that some seem to notice.

Science doesn't disprove an "intelligent" creator, as definitively proving negatives is a largely unproductive endeavor in an empiric field. It just demands evidence, real evidence, not just the ability of an observer to align his sense of awe with his preferred cultural explanation for that which we cannot yet thoroughly explain to a psychologically comfortable degree.

As Dawkins points out, ignorance impels the scientist to find explanations, not to complacently ascribe that ignorance to an unfound entity that apparently wasn't needed to "design" something as ordered and complex as snowflakes. That one is felt to be needed by some to explain the existence of man and how he, and the process of life of which he is a part, came about, is less anthropocentric than rejecting heliocentricism, but sufficiently so to appeal to today's deists and theists. It certainly ain't appealing to empiricists, but then again, if we can whimsically reduce even empiricism to nothing more than a "religion," whose supposed authoritarianism blunders in the way of true knowledge, then I can see how it all evens out in the end. Everything apparently is a theology, and successfully refinable processes nothing more than an cause to which we either do or don't "owe" allegience. I guess my speculation that the sun will probably rise tomorrow is also nothing more than faith, but at least one could have the courtesy to admit that it's a much less demanding faith than those held by some.

There are mathemeticians at least as serious as those quoted in this "debate" who have shown why their assumptions are flawed.

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4133&n=2

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,592-1619264,00.html


Ralph E. Luker - 8/23/2005

Caleb, All of this is well said and I agree with the points where you have spoken for me. You made them better than I would have done. The list of things in lieu of G_d was certainly not meant as excluding other possibilities. I do take offense when spokesman for atheism here come in with examples about teapots orbiting Mars, serving their cats, mermaids, etc. The examples trivialize the conversation, just as Reeves trivialized the conversation by suggesting that atheists divinized football. The point that there just aren't many atheists rooting in the Texas high school football leagues was well taken. But I also observe that my agnostic or atheist friends have not objected to P. Z.'s reference to Reeves as a "religious kook," when Reeves has a distinguished record of professional work that P. Z. can't match.


Caleb McDaniel - 8/22/2005

I hesitate to step in here, but I thought maybe I could respectfully offer a fourth-party perspective on this thread. I hope it will be taken in the spirit of blog-friendship with which it is offered.

Ralph, from where I'm sitting, neither Sharon or Jonathan are trying to control thought or inhibit the free exchange of ideas. I see them as making two points:

First, that "atheism" is a word that refers narrowly to a disbelief in the existence of supernatural beings. On that definition, there are true atheists. The point that Ralph is making is that everyone has an ultimate loyalty; the way that the Canadian philosopher Charles Taylor puts this is to say that almost every imaginable philosophical position has a set of deep-rooted "moral sources" that animates it, whether those sources are derived from religious traditions or secular ones or some combination of the two. But "moral sources" are not equivalent to "supernatural beings." And atheists do not necessarily deny that everyone has an ultimate loyalty just because they deny (or doubt) the existence of supernatural beings. Maybe some do, as you suspect, but Sharon and Jonathan are saying that they at least do not.

They are also saying (if I can speak for them a little more) that it's possible for an atheist to have deeply felt "moral sources" or deeply held first principles, and these can inform their disbelief in the existence of supernatural beings.

And that gets to the second point that they seem to me to be making. That is that they are offended by the implication there are no "true" atheists, because it seems to imply that the motives for atheists' belief--their "moral sources"--must somehow be "false." It could be that they take Ralph to be implying that whereas theists' ultimate loyalty is to truth, atheists' ultimate loyalty must be to something less than that, and that these lesser loyalties are in some sense baser.

I don't think that's what Ralph is saying, but perhaps what has brought about the confusion are the examples that Ralph gives of ultimate loyalties that are alternatives to the theist's loyalty to God: self-interest, nationalism, etc. If Ralph meant that list of examples to be exhaustive of the kinds of ultimate loyalties that atheists might have, then I can see why Jonathan and Sharon would be upset. They would be upset for the same reasons that theists are upset if their belief is explained as a kind of "false consciousness" or self-deception, a mask for nothing more than selfishness or sublimated desire.

But (if I can respectfully venture to speak for Ralph) I don't think Ralph means for that list to be exhaustive. If he doesn't, then we can all agree that it's possible for theists and atheists alike to have "moral sources" or ultimate loyalties that are deeply held, that have been passionately plumbed, and that stem finally from a desire to know what is true. Both atheists and theists, in other words, can have an ultimate loyalty to the truth, even though they arrive at antithetical conclusions about certain questions concerning the truth.

As I said, I don't think anyone here is saying that speech shouldn't be free, or that anyone is claiming that speech should never offend. It's a testament to how deeply held our beliefs and "moral sources" are that sparks can fly when we our spades make contact with our bedrock beliefs, just as they can fly when we feel our bedrock beliefs being hammered at or shifting beneath our feet, as I'm sure they all do for all of us, some of the time.

I have great respect for all three of you and hope this comment won't be taken amiss. All of the members of Cliopatria strike me as people who are "true" to what they believe, and who have a deep and abiding loyalty to the benefits of free discussion.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/22/2005

Dear Dr. Howard, You quoted what you chose and stopped there. I explained what I meant by that and you chose to ignore the sense in which I said it. I'd say it's a case of your choosing to take offense at what I said. If you said that there are no Christians, that would be a paraphrase of Nietzsche, as I recall: " ... the last Christian died two thousand years ago ...." I don't choose to get all huffy whenever I read that quote. There's too much truth in it. Please do, whenever you care to, feel perfectly free at Cliopatria or elsewhere to say that there are no true Christians or that my frank speech or whatever proves that I am not a true Christian. I do think that freedom means that we have to be willing to be offended on occasion.


Sharon Howard - 8/22/2005

What you said was, and I quote: "...Reeves understands that there are no true atheists."

What would you do if I said there are no true Christians? (Or that you are not a true Christian?)

Yeah, Jonathan was right and I was stupid to try to say how I felt. So I'm done too. And sorry to have offended you.


Oscar Chamberlain - 8/22/2005

"I suspect that the biologists will resist that development." Probably at first, but if some of these people actually do some good science, they will, eventually change things.

The problem, succinctly, is that they want to divide physical processes into things that can be studied scientifically and things that must be studied by different rules. And they have not even provided a way to tell the difference between the two.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/22/2005

Pardon me. I don't read National Review Online with any regularity. I thought you were referring to another blogger at History News Network who has the same last name.


Charles Schuyler - 8/22/2005

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't get the reference. David Klinghoffer is a journalist pretty familiar to folks who read National Review Online. One of his more noteworthy efforts was an article arguing that destruction of Iraqi aritfacts would be no big deal because Abraham (and therefore monotheism) was Mesopotamia's one truly important contribution to the world. "Silly" is the nicest thing you can say about stuff like that, I think.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/22/2005

All I suggested is that some other thing or things stands in the place of G_d or g_ds in the mind of an atheist. You're certainly free to disagree with that, but to suggest that I've said or done something personally insulting is to attempt a control of thought and speech that seems highly offensive to me.


Sharon Howard - 8/22/2005

But perhaps I'm not done. If being an atheist is part of who I am, an inner conviction that God and gods do not exist, why shouldn't a denial of that inflame my passions more than a little? We can have a conversation about how atheism is as much a matter of faith as theism. No problem. But I don't dismiss your beliefs, and all I ask is that you show me the same courtesy.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/21/2005

I take it you mean Judith Klinghoffer. I made no apologia for Reeves's post and had nothing to do with the decision to feature it on the mainpage. Unlike you and P. Z., however, I appreciate the determination of HNN's editor to represent different points of view on the mainpage, not simply my own.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/21/2005

Obviously, I don't accept your demand to submit faith claims to imperical verification.


Charles Schuyler - 8/21/2005

I'll distinguish myself from P.Z. Myers in one respect: to the extent that I'm able to judge these things (my doctorate was in Classical, not modern, history) Thomas Reeves has done valuable work. His book on Joe McCarthy seemed to me to be a good one; and I found very informative his Kennedy book, A QUESTION OF CHARACTER (I think that was the title). One thing I now greatly appreciate about it is that Reeves showed himself to be one of those principled conservatives who hate the reckless adventurism in foreign affairs that Kennedy constantly pursued. (I hope Reeves has kept his principles, and has no use for the grinning homunculus from Texas.) But, all that valuable work aside, I'm on board with Myers about "The Temptations of Secularism"; it was almost as silly as anything I've read in that genre. Only the existence of David Klinghoffer keeps it from winning first prize. It really does your site no credit to post this kind of stuff.


Charles Schuyler - 8/21/2005

Probably unsurprisingly, I disagree that such comparisons trivialize the issue, tho' they are certainly unflattering to traditional theism.
Correctly or incorrectly, an unbeliever of Russell's stripe puts belief in, say, a tribal deity of early Iron Age Palestine on the same footing as belief in something undisputedly mythical. This poses a perfectly fair challenge to the theist: show us how your belief differs, how it's empirically better grounded. I don't understand how this trivializes things. I'll add that it pays the theist the minimal compliment of taking his claims seriously as testable assertions about what is and what is not.


Jonathan Dresner - 8/21/2005

Probably. So's this: I'm done.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/21/2005

Is that passive/aggressive behavior?


Jonathan Dresner - 8/21/2005

Oh, the "I'm not trying to be offensive, and if you're offended then you're too sensitive, which proves my point" gambit.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/21/2005

I don't understand why it is inflammatory, unless one loves a label like "atheist" or "agnostic" with such passion that the denial of it inflames the passions. I think that if someone told me that, by definition, I am not a Republican (which is done by those who speak of RINOs), I am inclined to shrug my shoulders, recall that I was a Republican before my accuser was a gleam in his father's eye, and go vote in the Republican primary and, if necessary, Democrat in the general election.


Jonathan Dresner - 8/21/2005

As my father says, "he who defines the terms wins the argument": you've created a definition which is so broad (and I'm not sure it's technically a tautology, but it seems close) that it's impossible to draw meaningful distinctions. Moreover, using "g_d" as the term for "one's highest loyalty" is (deliberately?) inflamatory in this context.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/21/2005

PZ, Like Schuyler and Russell, your reaction to theism is superficial. I suppose the superficiality in your case is inevitable because you have never bothered to inform yourself about theological or philosophical debate. It was enough to know that G_d doesn't exist because mermaids and fairies don't exist. If we were talking outside your field, you'd recognize the argument as an excuse for ignorance.


Jonathan Dresner - 8/21/2005

I object to the idea that HNN has no standards. The primary standard is not academic qualifications (though that is a component of blogger selection) or quality (and certainly not quality as measured by non-historians) but a standard of relevance and diversity of view.


Paul Z Myers - 8/21/2005

I'll take your agreement that Reeves is dreck and that Horowitzian crap gets published on hnn as an admission that I was correct: hnn has no standards. I guess that's unfortunate, but good to know.

The claim that I resent the understanding that "there are no true atheists" is puerile nonsense. Your 'definition' of theism as simply having a higher loyalty is ludicrous, and makes religion into an empty nebulosity -- seriously, making the definition so absurdly broad that it includes me, Mencken, Ingersoll, O'Hair, and Russell makes the whole word meaningless, don't you think. I do not believe in gods; that makes me an atheist. The fact that I believe in my pet cat and serve him meals and clean up his poop does not make me a theist.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/21/2005

That seems correct to me, Irfan. You point to areas of strength for the Discovery Institute people that hadn't even occurred to me. The place where, it seems to me, they continue to be deeply vulnerable is that they have not yet developed scholarship in biology. That's, after all, crucial to be discussion and I suspect that the biologists will resist that development.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/21/2005

I know. It doesn't come naturally.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/21/2005

Mr. Schuyler, My colleague, Jon Dresner, suggested at the outset that speaking of highest loyalty, etc., trivialized the idea of "g_d". I'd say that you and Bertrand Russell, with your mermaids and teapots, have topped me by a far sight. I'll stick with my definitional understandings.


Charles Schuyler - 8/21/2005

I'll stick with my definition. An atheist (properly understood) does believe there is no God or god, but he does so because he believes there is no evidence adequate to warrant such a belief. He stands on the same footing with regard to God, in other words, as most people who disbelieve in mermaids stand with regard to mermaids. It's not that we know with Platonic certainty that mermaids don't exist; it's that the evidence for mermaids (the testimonies of lonely, and perhaps inebriated, sailors) provide us with no good reason to believe in such creatures. This is an important point to make, because atheism is often accused of being a variety of faith: the atheist is said to assert, as an article of faith, that God doesn't exist. That can only be the case if disbelief in mermaids is an article of faith, and I think that's giving the word faith quite a stretch. Faith, in the context of religious discussion, pretty generally means holding a belief for some reason besides its being well-supported empirically. To use another example: Bertrand Russell's hypothetical teapot orbiting Saturn. One cannot categorically exclude the possibility, but there is absolutely no evidence for it, so most of us quite reasonably disbelieve it. Is this a statement of faith? Rather, I think it is merely the most empirically justified conclusion one can come to on the subject.


Andrew Ackerman - 8/21/2005

ought to be a word Ralph can't say.


Ralph E. Luker - 8/21/2005

In point of fact, Mr. Schuyler, atheism does not mean, "to people who have some grounding in science or philosophy" ... "that there is no evidence adequate to warrant belief in that supernatural entity (or those supernatural entities) to which the name "god" has traditionally been given." That might be an adequate definition of agnosticism even to one so inadequately grounded in the English language as myself, but it is certainly not an adequate definition of a-theism, which makes the positive claim that "There is no g_d!"
My observation is merely that such claims have the status of quaint 19th century Victorian fashion -- and fashion that happens not to be true because we are creatures of our own highest loyalties.


Charles Schuyler - 8/21/2005

The argument here is "there are no true atheists" because "[a]ll of us have a highest loyalty, a highest majesty, whom we serve." Even if the premise is true (debatable), the conclusion works only if atheism is defined in a very peculiar way. What atheism means, I think, to people who have some grounding in science or philosophy is the belief that there is no evidence adequate to warrant belief in that supernatural entity (or those supernatural entities) to which the name "god" has been traditionally given. Disbelief in "god" in those traditional supernatural senses is quite compatible with having a higher loyalty that isn't "god" in the traditional sense, as I think you must realize. Therefore, there can quite easily be true atheists. I would just add that this omnibus use of the word "god," to include not just "God" with a capital g, but also "country," "mom," and maybe "apple pie" is an obstacle to clarity of language and thought. Also, it's often part of a singularly unimpressive anti-atheist argument: You're not REALLY an atheist, because you a) believe in objective moral values; or b) are awed by the majesty of nature; or c) have loyalties beyond narrow self-interest, or whatever else the arguer thinks is incompatible with atheism properly understood. None of these things MUST be incompatible with atheism properly understood, and so the argument is worthless.


Sherman Jay Dorn - 8/21/2005

I've thought about the best term for people who have blogs but either ignore reader comments or set up the blog (as in the DLC/PPI's Eduwonk) so commenting isn't allowed. How does "monoblog" sound?


Ralph E. Luker - 8/21/2005

I didn't equate G_d with non-theist values. I claimed that all of us have a highest loyalty -- even if it is only self-interest, which isn't particularly high -- and that that highest loyalty is our g_d. Sharon, I suppose that your back is just up. Do you scratch?


Sharon Howard - 8/21/2005

I agree with Jonathan. Having things you 'believe in' doesn't turn you into a theist. And if there's one thing that can put my back up, it's someone telling me that atheists don't really exist.


Jonathan Dresner - 8/21/2005

I'm sorry, Ralph, but I just can't accept the equation of God with non-theistic values, even "highest" ones. It's not fair to God, for one thing. "Idolatry" is the elevation of partial truths (or outright falsehoods) to absolute status and there really are people out there for whom there really are no absolutes.

You're playing the "atheism is a belief system" card again, but there are lots of us agnostics (even theistic agnostics like myself) who muddle about in some confusion, as Voltaire said, because "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."