Blogs > Cliopatria > Rhetoric and Outrage

Jun 27, 2005

Rhetoric and Outrage




Brian Leiter's "outrage" at Juan Non-Volokh's critique of Leiter's impeachment posting would have been laughable had it not contained the (since repudiated) threat to"out" Non-Volokh through solicitation of anonymous e-mails. Can you imagine Leiter's real--and justified--outrage had, say, David Horowitz issued a public call for anonymous e-mails to"out" a leftist blogger who had criticized the Academic Bill of Rights?

Leiter's original anger was directed against four prominent professors (Cass Sunstein, Mark Tushnet, Jack Rakove, and Michael Gerhardt) who had attacked Ralph Nader's argument that George W. Bush should be impeached. Leiter then concluded his posting with the following"somewhat tangential observation":

[I]n every society of which I'm aware the vast majority of the preeminent academic figures were, in general, cowards when it came to their own regimes, and apologists for what later generations would see clearly as inhumanity and illegality. This was clear in Germany in the 1930s, as it was in America in the 1950s. There is no reason to think the United States today is any different. This is one reason I should probably abandon attempts to evaluate law schools in terms of scholarly caliber.

It was this paragraph, and in particular the Nazi comparison, that generated Non-Volokh's comments. Non-Volokh, quite properly, noted Leiter's own faulty analysis, finding"the idea that American academics at large are too afraid to criticize the Bush Administration to be quite laughable." Leiter, after expressing doubts about non-Volokh's ability to read, responded that he had never compared contemporary US to Nazi Germany, nor had he focused his comments on academia as a whole, but merely on"preeminent academic figures." While it's not entirely clear how Leiter has defined"preeminent academic figures," at most campuses, a resolution stating,"Resolved: George W. Bush should be impeached," probably would pass even among senior faculty. For the purposes of his argument, Leiter seems to contend that"preeminent academic figures" are those preeminent figures who disagree with him.

The issue here, however, is Leiter's reaction. Indeed, as he points out, academics displayed cowardice both in Nazi Germany and in the US during the high point of the McCarthy era. How, in any way, is that observation relevant, even in a"somewhat tangential" fashion, to a debate among leading constitutional scholars about whether a motion of impeachment against George W. Bush has merit? And why is disagreeing with Leiter's interpretation evidence of" cowardice," rather than a good-faith intellectual disagreement? It was Leiter--not non-Volokh--who elected to argue his case in an inflammatory manner. It strikes me as peculiar to frame rhetoric in such a way that will deliberately inflame opinion and then to express"outrage" when opinion is subsequently inflamed.

Now, onto my"somewhat tangential" point--with the tangent being the intellectual variety in the academy. Today's statement from prominent academic organizations on"academic rights and responsibilities" is admirable in every respect. But the question, of course, remains how such rhetoric is implemented into policy. That one of the statement's signatories is the AAC&U gives me considerable pause.

Update, 4.41pm: Brian Leiter has E-mailed to state,"Your posting, which purports to be about my dispute with Mr. Non-Volokh contains a number of errors, which, as an historian, you will no doubt want to correct for your readers." His original posting on the impeachment issue is here; my apologies for not posting the link previously.

Update, 8.19pm: Brian Leiter has emailed, asking me to list the four specific items of disagreement with my posting, to wit:

1.) While Tushnet opposed impeachment, he did not attack Nader's argument;

2+3.) Prof. Leiter reiterates that (a) his initial posting referred only to"leading academics," and (b) argues that he has defined preeminent academics more precisely than I argue. I never claimed otherwise on (a); on (b) readers can be the judge. It doesn't affect my principal point, namely, that at most campuses, a resolution stating,"Resolved: George W. Bush should be impeached," probably would pass even among preeminent academics.

4.) Prof. Leiter says that"disagreement with me is irrelevant to the question of cowardice," and argues that"it might be interesting if you have something of substance to say about the actual arguments that were at issue in this dispute. Your opinions about matters of rhetoric, based as they are on some rather careless misrepresentations, are of less value." I'm disappointed that Prof. Leiter didn't find my opinions of value on this issue; as I said in the opening, my interest in this particular matter wasn't over the impeachment issue at all, but instead over the question of rhetoric and response--namely, that people who use inflammatory rhetoric and/or historical analogies shouldn't be surprised when that rhetoric triggers a strong response, as occurred in this case, even when that response was focused not on the substance of the post but on an item that Leiter himself deemed"somewhat tangential."



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Irfan Khawaja - 8/4/2006

I personally am against pseudonyms in blogging, except in cases where blogging threatens life or limb. But I'm curious whether anyone thinks the authors of The Federalist Papers were 'cowards'. How about Charlotte Bronte? George Eliot? Mark Twain?


Irfan Khawaja - 8/4/2006

Derek,

Do you ever actually read anything you respond to? Or do you regard that as somehow optional? I didn't compare Volokh to the Federalist Papers. I asked whether the use of pseudonyms always deserved the description of "cowardice". You were focusing on Volokh. I was focusing on pseudonyms. The phenomenon in question is known as a "difference in emphasis"--not an analogy.

You seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to my sheer presence anywhere, and it seems to be one that subverts your capacity for elementary reading comprehension. Maybe you should try getting that debility under control before spouting off at me about "colossal stupidity".


Ralph E. Luker - 6/27/2005

Not content with issuing edicts that bloggers may not blog anonymously or pseudonymously elsewhere on the net, Herr Catsam now gives orders to his professor. Is there an end to the pretentiousness of the Master from UNC, Charlotte? Silly dc.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/27/2005

Jonathan --
Someone with their own blog has a consistent forum in which they can do harm. The fact is we are incapable of knowing if a commenter is anonymous. Otherwise, you would have known about Marc Bacharach as Adam Moshe. It is rather more difficult to do what he did with a blog. I see one as more harmful than the other because of the platform. If that does not satisfy your prosecutiorial style, I am sorry. Rick seemed satisfied by the solution we came to, so while you assert consistent HNN policy, I'd advise you go and talk with your boss about this. Maybe he has papers for you to grade or something to pull you from this obsession.
dc


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/27/2005

Ralph still cannot read -- i never used the "Tom Bruscino agrees with me argument." I said that Jonathan did something similar to Tom without referencing Tom's substantive stance on these matters.
Please go back to directing people to websites that you yourself have not read.
Thank you.
dc


Jonathan Dresner - 6/27/2005

I'm not saying that its all your fault that our interactions never get anywhere. I'm just saying that our interactions never get anywhere, and I should know that by now. I'm pretty sure your vocabulary and my own are comparable, but you keep questioning the use of pretty clear terms as if you didn't get it. I was trying to be funny. Maybe someone else was amused?

I sent one e-mail to Tom Bruscino calling attention to what I felt was inappropriate language in a post; He disagreed, and the post went unchanged. Where's the harm? No public embarassment (until you brought it up), just a private exchange of views on tone and style in a common forum. Most of the other exchanges we've had were related to an actual substantive disagreement. I don't really want to involve Tom Bruscino in this, but I'm forced to make sure that the record is reasonably clear.

I don't understand why Prof. Catsam doesn't understand my failure to understand his distinction between commenting and blogging. I have no problem with anonymous comments at sites that allow them, and I have no problem with pseudonymous bloggers at sites that allow them. But, as Prof. Catsam points out, we don't allow either at HNN (with a very few exceptions for L&P bloggers): Marc Bacharach broke the rules by commenting under a pseudonym, which would normally result in his banning from the site; this is a pretty consistent policy (you'll note that the pseudonymous comment that appeared below has disappeared now; that's what we do, almost all the time, as soon as we catch it; by the way, if you think I'm missing clear violations of the rules in monitoring comments as an unpaid volunteer, which you charged above, feel free to bring them to Rick Shenkman's attention; his view of what's permissible often is broader than my own, though). It's a policy that I support, as it has raised the level of debate on our boards considerably. Prof. Catsam, with the support of his fellow Rebunkers, made a special pleading to HNN authorities for an exception (Cliopatria has considered such a pleading on several occasions for high quality pseudonymous bloggers [not commenters], but demurred), and it was granted. Fine, but if pseudonymity can be handled responsibly in a commenting situation, why is a blogging situation fundamentally different? That's what you have not, to my satisfaction, explained and where my "confusion" lies. In fact, a pseudonymous blogger, someone with a stable identity and venue, can more easily be held to account, at least within the blogging community, than someone who comments and moves on.


Ralph E. Luker - 6/27/2005

dc, This is about the third or fourth time that I've seen you do the "Tom Bruscino agrees with me, so I must be correct" number. At most, that makes two. The world is not convinced by the terms of the argument.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/27/2005

No, he is not. And he never claimed that he was, so while you bravely tilt at red herrings, I stand here before you and say that you misrepresented yourself as being familiar with something you clearly are not. You told me to do my homework, and not a single one of the sites that your google search told me to go to said a damned thing that you said that it did. You did not read them and yet scolded me for not doing my homework in citing them. You were quick to damn Thomas Reeves for linking to sites that did not say what he averred that they did. And now I am told by you that you would not do my homework for me with your helpful google search that did not show what you think it did. On top of that, I do my own google search (and read the results! Fancy that!) that leads to something fruitful, point out that there was only one alleged case of a blogger academic being fired (at least as appeared in the first 1o pages, 100 sites), and you come up with some "Lord of the net" nonsequiter?

And what precipitated all of this? I asked you to give me one example of an academic who had been fired for blogging. You led me to sites that were of no use. Indeed, some of the nonacademics who had been fired were anonymous also, which does not exactly help your case in justifying anonymous blogs. And you still have not answered the question that led you to tell me that you would not do my homework for me. Well I've done the damned homework. And the answer was not to be found. And I suspect that the reason that it was not to be found was because you do not know of any. You cannot give me a single case in which an academic blogger has been fired for their blogging.

So to recap: You do not read the things you condescend to others to about not reading, or else you do not understand what they say. You cannot cite an academic who can be shown to have been fired or denied funding for blogging, which is what I asked. And you express tautologies about the pluses of anonymous blogging (which elsewhere you claim to oppose and when attacked by one of them you always rightfully point out their anonymity) by citing the very existence of anonymous blogs, one of which does not exist anymore.

When your blog was just you alone, as I recall it bore the title "Welcome to my World." I now know that to get there, one just needs to find the other side of the looking glass.

dc


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/27/2005

Jonathan --
Your closing sense of (unwarranted) superiority is duly noted.
I'm shocked that you still do not see that I differentiate between anonymous commenters and anonymous bloggers. I am uncertain as to why such confusion would reign. I see one as different from the other, prefer neither, and saw my options once I wanted Adam Moshe to blog with us as being to let him do it once we rectified the anonymous comments of the past or not to. Since he has never blogged anonymously, and since it is anonymous blogging to which I am mostly opposed, I am at a loss as to why you keep beating on that issue.
You have also sent what both Tom and I believed to be unwarranted scolding emails to him. So I am not alone. You take your editing job seriously. And for that I am happy for you in the way that I am happy for anyone who finds the sort of task for which they are temperamentally suited.
I understand what ham-fisted means, and am glad you cited a reference for it, since your vocabulary is so evidently better than mine. My problem is that your asserting it does not make it so. I can call you lots of things,. It is justifying them that makes them so. If my general opposition to anonymous blogging is so hard for you to grasp, I dare ask why, as a general rule, HNN prefers for its bloggers not to be anonymous? In other words, what I prefer seems to be HNN's preference also. While it might be hamhanded, I cannot help but notice that Rick would not have allowed Adam to have been an anonymous blogger even if he had so asked. Perhaps Rick and I share hamhandedness. But then he has never even tried to justify himself to you. Perhaps bevcause when you broached the subject with him, you did not start with so felicitous a phrase as talking about my "glorious contradiction," which did not happen to exist.
In any case, we get it -- you are better than I because when you start the namecalling I respond. We now know that much is manifest. And now I know what "hamhanded" means, even if I have not really seen it used properly. Between your pedantry and Ralph's lessons about homework, I really feel I learned something today. It is really a pleasure to be in a planet that orbits around your sun.

dc


Ralph E. Luker - 6/27/2005

I misrepresented nothing. You apparently needed to fill some time. Glad to be of service. Think Invisible Adjunct, Naomi Chana, Another Damned Medievalist, etc. Fortunately, they have the option to post anonymously or pseudonymously, if they wish. Catsam isn't lord of the net.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/27/2005

So wait, we allow for anonymous comments?

As for a woman being raped, that is an awful tragedy. And I had a girlfriend who was raped once, so it is not one that I take lightly. But at what point does that mean that someone must write about being raped? If someone chooses to write about it, good for them, and I support what must be a wretchedly hard decision. But at what point did it become necessity for that person to write about that rape? And at what point do they get to write about it anonymously?

As for "doing my homework for me," Ralph, let's see how disingenuous one can be:

(Note-- see the end of this long comment, but there is one documented case of a professor who alleged that she was fired for writing a blog. She did so anonymously. She talked about her students' drug habits and eating disorders. And the university says it did not "fire" -- ie not renew -- her contract for reasons related to her blog, though they were concerned about it. That's it. No other cases. Now on to the whirlybird of fun known as seeing who did their homework:

I googled the phrases Ralph suggested, got 734,000 hits, and went from there:

The first one involves someone who apparently breached security at Microsoft. Does it sound silly? Sure. But they did something that broke clearly written rules. That was not ideological.

Next -- someone claims to have gotten fired for blogging, but the entire post pretty much hammers that person as a disingenuous twit. Here is the money paragraph from the blog, critical of such self-serving assertions: "So, I assert that nobody's ever been fired for blogging. How can you test this hypothesis? Take a person's words, and guess what would happen if you took the exact same words or ideas and sent them to the public via letter to the editor, streetcorner soapbox, or pony express. Would they still get you canned? Then you weren't fired for blogging. I haven't seen a convincing example of a situation where this wasn't true yet. And believe me, in my line of work, I hear about every person that gets "fired for blogging"."

OK, so that is the first two on the list of 734,000 that I got-- (which leads me to believe that maybe you think that just getting hits is sufficient to prove a case. As opposed to, you know, actually proving a case.

#3 on the Ralph does his homework list: the airline employee who, wearing her stewardess uniform, blogged pictures of herself in a provocative pose. Yes, free speech is in danger if we do not blog anonymously. After all, then we may not be able to wear our school hat in our online diaries that show us provocatively sprawled across classroom chairs.

#4: Someone who was just hired to work for Google, and began instantly slamming his employee on his blog. Now one might think that google was hostile to blogs. If that is the case, check your url -- I hope it is not part of "blogger" which, inconveniently, Google owns. If you take on a job, and part of the rules are that you do not blog company business, and you blog about the company, take your medicine.

#5: Repeats one of the stories above -- but compares being fired by Blogger to North Korea. Homework, indeed.

#6: And to think, out of these 734,000 cases that should have proven the rock solid case about the oppression of bloggers, aned how I have not done my homework, we have already repeated ourselves -- twice. This one is about that poor, beleaguered Delta stewardess.

#7: More on a fired Google blogger. I see a trend. get hired, break rules while blogging that you agreed to when you signed your contract, lose job. Damned North Koreans.

#8: Guess who reappears? Our flight attendant friend. i agree that someone did not do their homework.

#9: A new one. And who is our victim of intolerable oppression? An employee at Waterstones right here in the UK who called his company "Bastardstones" (See what he did? Do you see what that clever guy did there?) and then compared -- get this -- his work condition to slavery.

#10: A not precisely sympathetic reading of, well, of #1.

#11: I think this refers to case #4 #7. Or of #'s 3-6 or something. More of the same. Someone blogged and decided to criticize the company for which they work. And it is not in academia. None of these have been. Jesus, homework is a snooze. Thank God Ralph did such a thorough job of this, or else it would be a waste of time.

#12: More on the microsoft mess. Except there are some new details. Apparebntly the guy did not get fired for blogging, but rather for taking pictures that were forbidden. And revealing info about his work. Oh, and Microsoft apparently encourages blogging. Tyrants!

#13: Apparently a bad link. Or at least not one that brings us to where I thought it would. Nothing about blogging from what I can tell. Ralph must know -- he can tell you.

#14: Ahh, a subset of #13. And hat do we find out? That in the opinion of one blogger, the blogger fired by Waterstones was guilty of "Blog fuckwittery." That made it worth reading through 14 google citations that do not prove what the person sending me to them thought they did. Blog fuckwittery indeed. Don't think that's the last time that will squeak past my keyboard.

#15: Someone fired from friendster, also referenced in some of the ones above. Here is what the blogger of #15 has to say: "The media and all too many bloggers that I’ve read today seem to be running with Friendster being the Dark Side because they fired a good employee “for blogging” Please, isn’t it possible that it has more to do with talking about internal company business without permission?" Yes, it is possible. It is probable. Which is why someone who claims to have been fired for blogging (note -- we have seen nione from academia yet) may well be full of it.

#16: Someone fired for divulging corporate secrets on his blog. My homework assignment is teaching me that people are freaking retards. Independent confirmation of a thesis long held.

#17: More on waterstones, repeating the North Korea stuff, pointing out that one of the things he called his boss was a "cheeky smegger." I've no idea what that is, but Tom Bruscino undoubtedly is one.

#18: Wow -- so of those 734,000 hits for fired blogger that Ralph carefully culled, it only took to #18 to get to one in which the blogger was not actually, you know, fired, but instead had his blog shut down. Here is the draconian view of the editor of the Hartford Courant, which shut down the blog: "Denis Horgan's entire professional profile is a result of his attachment to the Hartford Courant, yet he has unilaterally created for himself a parallel journalistic universe where he'll do commentary on the institutions that the paper has to cover without any editing oversight by the Courant," Toolan said. "That makes the paper vulnerable." One can disagree. But he was not "fired" in the sense of being, you know "fired." So he's got that going for him. Which is nice.

#19: Back to the subject of #1 and others, which, tellingly, is consistently referred to as "non blogger fired for blogging." No academia as North Korea yet. But I am counting on it.

#20: probably same as above -- blogger fired at Microsoft, except now we learn it was because of a security breach. Damnable first amendment haters.

#21: (How far will he go, you ask?) Journalist fired for blogging from work. Again, I do not support this. But I guess they had rules. The lesson she learned, and posted on her subsequent blog? "Don't blog from work. Especially if you work for douchebags." Amen, sister. Amen. If you were in asademia, I'd almost say that we have a case study. Other than the breaking the rules part.

#22: More Microsoft: " Michael Hanscom was fired for posting a shot of new Apple G4's arriving at Microsoft's Redmond campus." And they even have a link as to why Hanscom felt he made a mistake.

#22: Houston Chronicle writer and (anonymous! Anonymous! Oh wait -- that did not help him? Damn -- acase to be made for anonymous blogging. But not quite. blogger fired. For covering terrain he was paid to cover in his regular work.

#23: Waterstones again. he referred to his boss in his blog by the cunningly oblique nickname of "evil boss." How do employers see through these things? Evil genius, I tell you. Evil freaking genius.

#24: Google again. Sympathetic to the poor sot who, admittedly, published "financial and new product information." It was either fire him or name the employee washroom after him, and the washroom sentimantally was named after "sexual harassment Larry." (That last part was actually not true. But other than Ralph and I, who would have known? You people have not done your homework. But unlike ralph, I will do it for you.)

#25: Pro-life blogger and NY Post writer changes story, gets fired. She may have a case. Although a journalist who gets to tell her story to a reporter somewhere else, (New York Observer) and then on another blog says that she has to correct some errors in the story the reporter just wrote about her, because "inevitably" in a story of 4000 words, there will be some factual errors, may not be much of a journalist. I'm just sayin' is all. "Inevitably?"

#26: Microsoft . . . security violation . . . homework so boring . . .

#27: Here we go --- National Journal writer fired for saying negative things abpout Barack Obama. A number of wources go with it. This is the juicy stuff we've been waiting for. Oh, wait -- the blogger who was fired has some words to say? By all means: "There's a story in the National Journal on me. I am a volunteer and I didn't get fired. We decided that after the Convention started I wouldn't post to the DNCC blog (I had been using it somewhat to help coordinate the blogging component) so that I could post freely to my own. I'm a bit puzzled by the whole story, actually because we still have a great relationship and I'm still helping out the credentialled bloggers. "I just didn't want any confusion between what I say and what the DNCC says," he said in an interview. He added that the DNCC "wants bloggers to say whatever they want to say. The difference was that I was associated with the DNCC." Yeah, but if you were an anonymous blogger in academia and you said you would have been fired irrespective of whether it was true . . . well, I could have gone to bed by now.

#28: The same North Carolina journalist fired.BNack there in the teens probably. Ralph has the notes.

#29: A post that refers to another blog, but does give us the useless commentary that they do not know what the big deal is. The blogger who got fired wrote: "Getting to surf the web for 3 hours while being paid: Priceless.
Getting to blog for 3 hours while being paid: Priceless.
Sitting around doing nothing for 3 hours while being paid: Priceless. Installing Windows 2000 Server on a P2 300: Bloody Freaking Priceless." You see, boys and girls, as academics, we do get paid to write, which makes a difference, and not being hourly employees, our time is fungible. Appears that his was not. Too bad for him. On to . . .

(By the way, has anyone so far been fired for their political views? Maybe NYPost woman, who thought it inevitable that a 4000 word story about herself would have errors.)

#30: Guy working for Apple may or may not have been fired. If he was it was for giving away secrets about how to use certain icons before they were available for general use.

#31: The Friendster thing again. She is appalled that the person was fired for posting what she calls innocuous information. If I worked in tech, I'd say that you assume it is all pretty delicate.

#32: "Another blogger fired" says the headline. It had nothing to do with blogging, but rather was just a reduction in force. I guess "blogger" and "fired" was not the best way to leaern this particular lesson. intrepidly, however, I'll keep doing my homework.

#33: Microsoft blogger fired. This blog uses the same exact woirds one of the blogs did a half hour ago. Maybe this is another hidden lesson that this homework assignment was supposed to teach: Bloggers being fired is not the problem. Bloggers plagiarizing other bloggers about bloggers being fired is. Once again, chalk one up to teacher-san.

#34: Delta blogger still fired. Now has PR firm.

#35: Different way to get to #34.

#36: #29 redux. "Being told I need to do my homework? Priceless. Finding out that person who told me I needed to do my homework only did the googling and didn't actually look at any of these posts? Priceless. Realizing that the likelihood is ever greater that the majority of people who claim to be in jeopardy of getting fired if they do not blog anonymously is not worth the bandwidth it is printed on? Priceless."

#37: Delta. Same picture. Not that attractive. NEXT!

#38: Google guy again. Now niot clear he was ever actually fired. may have been. Neither an academic issue nor a free speech issue. NEXT!

#39: Dead link. Title indicated it was about Waterstone's guy.

#40: canadian may have been fired for her blogging, but no one, including the woman who was fired, seems to know much about it. The fired woman? Outraged. "Live and Learn," she says, while expressing not one scintilla of the outrage that the blog this links to does. Clearly the blogger knows more than the fired woman.

#41: Should be about the NY Post writer. Is an off topic comment about how listening to U2 will always be like praying for peggy. You go girl. For me, it will always be Maria. (Say it loud and it's music praying. Say it soft and it's almost like praying.)

#42: More on our friend from waterstones. Showing the proper perspective I think here: " I am not a serf; I am not an indentured servant." Yes! because being fired for calling the people you work for "Bastardstones" (again, do you see that wordplay?) and being fired strikes me as being a comparable parallel with serfdom. I think I saw that in Peter Kolchin's work somewhere.

#43: From those tyrannical bastards at Blogger -- a helpdesk page with the title "How not to get fired because of your blog." The evidence does pile up about someone doing their homework.

#44: The Google blogger who got fired finally updates his blog. Says little to feed the controversy. Anonymous academic bloggers search for any sign.

#45: Long post on Waterstones dude.

#46: google guy again. head starting to hurt.

#47: Same guy.

#48: Mostly in French. Friendster person again. Sacre bleu!

#49: Dead link took ages to load.

#50: More of how not to get fired.

OK. So what we know here is that the person who told me I did not do my homework did a Google search where he did not tghen read any of the posts that were really the gist of that homework. All together now, freshman class doing first paper "Googling is just the first step." read some of those posts, maybe, say, 50, and realize that you defined pretentious -- you claimed an unjustified position of knowledge, telling me to read something you self-evidently had not read.

Now, had you gone further and googled (and then probably not read) "blogger" and "Professor" and "fired" you would have gotten a mere 161,000 posts that you would not have read. You would have found out about an adjunct professor at SMU who was not renewed, and who cannot trace it to their blog. Which was, by the way anonymous, which was bothersome for colleagues who began to recognize but could not defend themselves. And who in any case said absolutely ruthless and unfair things about her students (talking about their eating disorders, drug use, sex lives -- and she knew this how?) And . . . and that's it. I went through ten pages, and that is the only case of a professor who was fired for her alleged involvement with blogs. So again, who did not do their homework? And who misrepresented doing it?

dc






Jonathan Dresner - 6/27/2005

Prof. Catsam,

Even I forget, sometimes, that tone doesn't always come through text very well. I'm not "taken aback" by your descriptions of me and my views: they are predictable (given our past interactions) and not terribly far from my own self-understanding. I'm a nerd, a geek, an historian, outspoken, and a petty (volunteer) bureaucrat, not necessarily in that order; you can't hurt me or surprise me or challenge me by calling me those things. The term "scofflaw" is not vulgar, nor libelous, nor inaccurate. I do not regret using it in this context. Not all negatively toned statements or descriptions are "attacks."

I'm sorry to hear that you still haven't gotten over those e-mails I sent you pointing out typos (copyediting is one of my duties at HNN, though not on Rebunk) and, yes, on ocassion, questioning your judgement. It's been months since I sent anything other than a suggestion for reading, and I don't think we've exchanged more than a dozen e-mails in the last year.

I'm also sorry that "ham-fisted" is beyond your understanding: it means unkosher, unclean... no wait. It was a shorthand way of saying that your formulations about anonymous blogging were overly blunt and broad, unsubtle and unhelpful.

I'm surprised, honestly, that discovering someone for your blog who was pseudonymous and substantive and who refrained, as you have repeatedly told us, from unwarranted attacks, would suggest that you might need to reconsider your blanket statements about pseudonymity. There's little point in having an actual discussion about this in the context of this thread, in my view. I regret starting it, honestly, not because of your inflated sense of embattlement, but because engaging you has so rarely shed light on anything that I would expect myself to know better by now. I will let others engage you on the issue, if they wish.


ogged de'unfogged - 6/26/2005

Just to be clear about my own situation: I wouldn't be fired because I'm such a champion for justice, but because it's clear from my blog that it takes a lot of my time. But that's just another indication that there are many reasons to blog pseudonymously. I've read posts by pseudonymous women who recount their experience of being raped. Is that objectionable? There are many reasons to blog pseudonymously, and also many ways in which pseudonymity or anonymity can be abused. We can judge each case without trying to make ill-fitting rules for everyone.


Julie A Hofmann - 6/26/2005

What you are complaining about is bad manners. And some people might write pseudonymously so that they can attack others, but I think that most pseudonymous bloggers do so for any number of valid reasons, especially when their blogs contain details of their personal lives. And I think it's reprehensible to say that discovering the real blogger gives one a right to out the pseudonymite.

If you are wondering about people being fired for blogging, you might think of the origins of the word 'dooced'. And BitchPhD had something about an adjunct who was fired for her blog about a month or so ago.


Ralph E. Luker - 6/26/2005

It really isn't my job to do your homework for you. Suffice it to say that a google search for "blogger" and "fired" gets a mere 743,000 hits. I think what has happened is that you remember one case of an anonymous blogger who got you all fired up and you generalized an attitude based on that one blogger. Why would you doubt the word of Ogged at Unfogged that he'd be fired if he were outed. I'd say he's more expert at his situation than you are. And why not conjure with the implicit sexism of your generalization based on a single male anonymous blogger? Have a look at the history blogroll. A very high percentage of female history bloggers are anonymous or pseudonymous. If asked, I'm sure that they'd give you a variety of reasons for that: professional consequences, stalking, protect the family, etc. It's just a good thing that they have that option, in spite of your imperious desire that they not have it.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/26/2005

Well, Ralph, rather that assert that I do not know the "whole range of academic blogs" how about giving me concrete examples of where people have been fired or lost funding for blogging. I do not know of many examples. I know of a couple who were spoken to, maybe even not treated all that well, but none who lost jobs or funding as a consequence. It is not simply enough "to know that it does." And if the cases are everywhere around us (but I don't know, of course) is anonymous blogging really the solution? Because even if you believe people have the right to blog anonymously, anyone who finds their identity has the right to out them. It would seem to me that anonymous blogging is not the answer, but rather that changing academic culture so that people are free to blog publicly is.
There are hundreds of academic bloggers who use their own names, or, to be more accurate in terms of my critique, who do not hide their identities. I do not see them fighting an oppressibve regime through openness. I see them writing a blog without hiding their identities.
So again, rather than disparage a presumed ignorance on my part, how about stepping up and giving examples of people who have been punished, rather than projecting that if I only knew I'd think differently. I read a pretty good range of blogs. Professional imperatives mean that I cannot read as much as some apparently can, but I am not exactly ignorant of what academics do in their blogging time. And since not a single person has given a single example of these rampant punishments being meted out left and right, I have to assume I am the only one walking around ignorant of my very ignorance.

dc


Ralph E. Luker - 6/26/2005

dc, If you were more familiar with the range of academic blogs, you wouldn't be asking "how often does this happen?" It is enough to know that it does.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/26/2005

Jonathan --
Ooooh, the guy who engages in the name calling first now seems a bit taken aback when someone calls him ascold, or his behavior noisome. As for quality, I'll gladly copmpare the quality of my work at Rebunk to yours here at Cliopatria, lack of graphs and all.
My explanation for asking Marc into Rebunk seems rather straightforward -- I did not know that he posted anonymously. I never did. How could I? I had never nmet Marc before, but I was impressed with his arguments as Adam Moshe. He never attacked anyone, indeed, he never even called anyone names (like, say, calling him a scofflaw). He gave me an explanation, I believed it. That is my substantive explanation (not a rationalization, which is rather a different thing). If I owe a greater explanation, I am not aware of it. If this shows that I am not the one who is dogmatic about this, so be it.

If I grow tired of you emailing me every so often with your disapproval and I make it plain here, and you do not like it, well, I am nonetheless still not certain you have earned the right to call my assertions of my beliefs ham-handed or uninformed (you still have not explained that one, Dr. Dresner) or my colleagues names when you yourself are supposed to be out patrolling the comment boards for all that does not meet the censorious standards of the Dresner Meter, all the while other things slip through that you do not seem to mind at all. Your palpable sense of being wronged would be a lot easier to take seriously if you had not initiated this by discussing my "glorious contradiction" which, given that I never coutenanced any contradiction at all, separating as I do commenting from blogging and pointing out (factually correctly, I might add) that no one has ever blogges for Rebunk anonymously. It was at that point that you came in with "ham fisted" and the rest of your cavalcade of words you seem to have been trying on for size, not quite realizing that they did not fit. You started a fight. I do, in fact, find that noisome and tiresome (a note -- for careful readers, I was describing your behaviors as being noisome and tiresome. You personally, I could not care less about. We have never met. All I know you by is your scolding behavior and your utterly unearned sense of righteous superiority. If you act like X, and I accurately describe you as X, that is not a personal attack. Calling someone a scofflaw is. See how it works?)

dc


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/26/2005

I do not think I am trying to establish rules. But I do think that people who blog anonymously and then use that anonymity to attack people, which almost every blog does at some point, are acting very unfairly. I think anyone has the right to speak. I am not certain that we owe them the same protections regarding their speech when they do not use their own name. I do not think I ever said that anonymous blogging should be illegal. But I hate when people self-aggrandize themselcves to claim that they would lose their job/funding/posting if they blogged under their own name. How often has this happened?
If you live in Iraq right now or Zimbabwe or North Korea, of course -- by blogging anonymously you may well be protecting your life, safety, and property. But when junior professors do it from the inner sanctum of their office, I think we have a right to ask questions. Too many people blog in their own name, with apparently the enormous peril that confronts them, for me to take all that seriously the claims of necessity for those who do not, but then are willing to criticize others professionally by name.

dc


Jonathan Dresner - 6/26/2005

Prof. Catsam,

We have, as we usually do, reached that point where we are repeating ourselves.

You have, again, made the mistake of assuming that I don't understand my own position; yes, I'm a sanctimonious self-righteous scold, and no, you don't live up to my standards, at least as a blogger/commenter here. Sometimes I don't either, but none of the charges you think you've leveled qualify, at least not this time.

I take this forum and this form seriously; My most recent "tiresome" chart-laden (oh, sorry, that's "tedious"; I'm "tiresome" and "noisome") post was precisely a discussion of the technology and the uses to which it can or should be put to in the academy. I've spent considerable time and energy policing these comment boards, editing articles, finding material, writing, correcting typos, fixing hyperlinks and, in my spare time, trying to present interesting and relevant issues and facts.

I don't think Mr. Bacharach is lying about his intentions or activities; I simply don't believe that his consistent and knowing violations of the rules should be rewarded. However, the blogs of HNN are largely independent of each other, and you and the management have worked it out to your satisfaction. It would be dishonest of me to pretend that I approve, however. Frankly, it makes my job policing comments considerably more difficult when I have to defend a glaring exception like this; your failure to provide any sort of substantive rationalization is a disappointment, because it leaves me to come up with one myself, which will probably consist of "if you think you qualify for an exemption, ask the management."

I don't expect you to understand my position, or value my disapproval, or change your mind. That would be silly of me. I merely state my case.


Julie A Hofmann - 6/25/2005

Er ... might I point out that I'm just happy Mr. Catsam does not make the rules for the internets? Why does this matter so much? There is a great tradition of writing pseudonymously in the print world. Blogging offers to many the same kind of opportunity. There's nothing particularly or inherently dishonest about noms de plume, last I heard. As Ralph and Jonathan have pointed out, there are many bloggers who do feel professionally safer writing behind a pseudonym -- and it really isn't that hard to figure these things out. If someone prints something libelous, pseudonymously or not, it's still libel, isn't it? So there is presumably legal recourse?

My own opinion on this is that, as long as people behave ethically and do not try to deliberately mislead others (I remember a huge flame war where one person logged into comments under several different names, which I think *is* dishonest) for malicious or otherwise unworthy purposes, it just isn't a problem. In fact, it's rather a neat thing about blogging -- people can meet each other (and I'm talking about academics, in particular) and exchange ideas without getting caught up in externals. It can be liberating to realize that there are so many good ideas out there that don't necessarily come from R1 stars, and that, without the trappings of hierarchy, we do tend to work together quite well much of the time.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/25/2005

Jonathan --
Ham-fisted? How so? Or was that just the first word that popped into your head? And it seems rather brazen of you to assert that I have a flawed understand(ing) of the technology. Where am I showing a flaw in understanding? You are the one who could not differentiate from a blogger who, inconveniently for your little self-righteous attack, had never blogged anonymously, and someone who commented anonymously. Meanwhile, you refer to our new colleague as a "pseudonymous scofflaw," which itself seems like a rather brazen breach of the etiquette table at which you seem to have decided you sit at the head. I believe I understand both the technology (well enough anyway) and the "discourse," (nice jargon, that). If you accuse "misunderstanding" why not have the basic courtesy of showing how I do not understand that over which you so clearly have mastery? Either you have some evidence of actual errors of fact that I have made, or else you are a blowhard using the first words that pop into your head. I think I suspect which is the case.
There is nothing "ham fisted" about my simple assertion that I do not think academics should be blogging anonymously. It's what I like to call a stand of principle. I separate blogging from commenting. If that is ham-fisted, so be it. You do an awfully good job of making a lot of accusations and a very poor job of substantiating your judgments with much other than to toss off vague and unsubstantiated accusations.
Again, to be clear, Marc Bacharach has never blogged pseudonymously. The rest is your bloated attempt to cover attacking me in that style of Dresneresque sanctimony we have all come to know and love. If you did not express your disapproval of some of us every so often, Jonathan, I would have to assume you would not even know that we exist. In its way, it's flattering, like being hit on by someone ugly.
As for whether Marc violated the rules through either ignorance or malice, I guess you have appointed yourself to be the judge of that. He told me that he changed his name to prove a point about the futility of trying to stop anonymous comments and then that he simply did not change it back. I believe him. If you do not believe that (and your scofflaw comment indicates that you don't) take it up with Rick, who approved him. Or better yet, take a stance and call him a liar. After all, you've decided that it is acceptable to call names.
Self appointed scolds are simply not that much fun to be around. But then those of us who have been scolded by you well know this. It might be nice if you were clued in to the fact. Your accusations have grown tiresome. Your decision that you grasp the master narrative of the discourse is noisome. I've no idea what understanding technology has to do with it, but then again, I don't have the facility to create charts to make tedious blog posts all the more tedious, so maybe you know something that I don't. I have no doubt that you think that you do.

dc


Jonathan Dresner - 6/25/2005

Prof. Catsam,

As you said, "Everyone has the right to speak, and the internet gives everyone the forum to do so. That does not, however, mean that one has the right to do so anonymously." Your distinction between blogger and commenter would mean more at, say Crooked Timber, where the bloggers are autonymous and the commenters may be anonymous; we have a stated policy here, violation of which has gotten dozens of people and comments taken off these boards. We have also made exceptions for bloggers (at Liberty&Power, when other members of the group knew the real identity of the blogger and would vouch for their competency and good behavior) but not for commenters (beyond a small window in which people who appeared to have violated the rules more through ignorance than malice have been given an opportunity to repent).

I have no problem with Mr. Bacharach blogging with you under his own name: I do have a problem with your blanket condemnation of anonymous blogging when paired with your promotion of a pseudonymous scofflaw to fellow blogger. Your ham-fisted opposition to anonymous blogging represents a flawed understand of both the technology and discourse in which we are engaged.


Ralph E. Luker - 6/25/2005

dc, I think blogging in one's own name is clearly preferable, but I don't go so far as you do in your last paragraph. People have various reasons for the choices they make and your position just doesn't allow for that. A very large percentage of female bloggers do it anonymously or pseudonymously. Some of them, like Another Damned Medievalist, Invisible Adjunct, and Naomi Chana at Baraita do remarkable things. I'm glad they aren't ruled by your opposition.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/25/2005

Jonathan --
No, because there is no contradiction, and I explained the situation in my post introducing him. I think it ought to be clear that "blogging" and "commenting" are rather different, (it's why we call them different things! Shocking, that.) and you might have noticed that our newest blogger is blogging under his own name. There is no "glorious contradiction." There isn't even an inglorious one.

I think people should not blog anonymously. Our new blogger is not blogging anonymously. He wrote his first post ever for us under his own name. This is the first time he has ever blogged. What is the glorious contradiction? Oh, wait, there isn't one. In an ideal world would he have commented under his own name? Yes. Does that mean that he should never be allowed to blog? No. Indeed, have all of his past comments been put under his own name? Yes.

So again, just to be clear: I oppose anonymous blogging, especially in areas where intellectual openness is prized. Our new blogger is blogging for the first time ever, and in his first post he used his own name. Whatever confusion you might be having over these facts that are both rather elemental, and not especially difficult to glean, the problem is yours, not mine or Marc's.

dc


Jonathan Dresner - 6/24/2005

Prof. Catsam,

Are you going to modify your comments here in light of your newest Rebunker, or are you going to just let them stand in glorious contradiction?


Jonathan Dresner - 6/24/2005

The only thing a person who blogs anonymously loses is, until he or she demonstrates competency, appeal to authority. Otherwise, there's no reason not to take the ideas and presentations of anonymous bloggers -- writers, callers, etc. -- seriously, if they are presented as such.

On-line identities like Juan Non-Volokh, Another Damned Medievalist, etc. are not so fungible as to allow their users the kind of irresponsibility which comes from anonymous comments; it's harder to conceal your identity than you might think, particularly over long periods and when one is in conversation with a small and knowedgeable group of people. It's a very rare pseudonymite, I suspect, who could so firmly separate their on-line identity from their person that they do not take attacks just as personally as those who blog Autonymously.

There are a lot of reasons, beyond "life and limb" that make pseudonymous commentary worth considering, just as there are venues -- educational and political (HNN among them) -- where pseudonymous commentary is inappropriate, but where the ideas raised by pseudonymites can be taken for what they are worth.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/24/2005

Ralph --
And of course, as usual, you handled it more sensitively, and better, than I did. Fact is, the internet allows us to let out whatever we want, including cries for pain. That's fine when the cry is something like "Help! I'm a Red Sox Fan!" it's a bit more problematic when you are dealing with daddy issues, or whatever.
dc


Ralph E. Luker - 6/23/2005

No need to get all spleenetic about it, dc. Irfan simply made a point about pseudonymous publication of major work. It's clearly a legitimate point and calling it "stupid" doesn't make it so.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/23/2005

Wait a second. At what point did spewing one's spleen on blogspot.com become the intellectual equivalent to writing the federalist papers? Beyond reductio ad absurdum, at what point did the Volokh Conspiracy become, say, Common Sense? I'm willing to concede this point: If we ever discuss a blog that attempts to overthrow a King within the geographical barriers of the land in which he/she lives, we will be dealing with a serious analogy. Otherwise, it is just inane to talk about the Federalist papers. Are we being serious, or just contrary? We are talking about guys being able to make dick jokes, and then claim academic tyranny. I am sorry if I am daft enough to believe that someone being too timid to let his name be known is rather different from people dealing with real oppression. I am sorry -- some guy who cannot be traced levying criticisms agsint those who can deserves no protection in a society that does not even vaguely compare to the one in which the federalist papers was written. That was a colossally stupid comparison.

dc


Ralph E. Luker - 6/23/2005

Good point, Irfan, and all the more reason, perhaps, that pseudonymity should be an option for those who want to take it. We'd be immensely impoverished without the contributions of people who have published anonymously or pseudonymously. Of course, the group of authors you mention is quite mixed in that regard, isn't it? I'm thinking that virtually everyone who cared to know knew who Mark Twain was -- he certainly appeared regularly enough around the country and the world in that name.


Ralph E. Luker - 6/23/2005

In re the case whereof you speak, basically what should have happened is what did happen, I think. The guy was posting stuff that was deeply personal. I had some off-line contact with him and recommended that he get some psychological help. If ever there was a blog that was a cry for help, that was it. And blogging wasn't going to get it.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/23/2005

Ralph --
I agree. Generally.
Although it would depend on how irresponsible said blogger is, and if s/he was doing anything to me personally, or to people I care about or an institution that meant something to me. Because I came damned close a few weeks back with a certain blogger who wisely pulled his blog a few weeks ago after he was nailed. he happened to be craspping all over an institution and people I am fond of. When he was not pondering his look sand his, well, you remember.
But I do think that blogging anonymously is a decision we have to respect even if we disagree with it profoundly. But be careful when going on the attack . . .

dc


Robert KC Johnson - 6/23/2005

I agree with both Derek and Ralph here--it's better not to blog anonymously, because of the accountability factor, and that if an untenured person were concerned about the possibility of blogging affecting tenure, it's simply better not to blog. I agree with Ralph also that, in general, Juan Non-V is not the prime reason I read Volokh every day.

Regarding this specific dispute, however--I don't see Juan Non-V's original post as at all intemperate. Indeed, in comparison to Leiter's original post, the post is the height of temperance. So I don't think that Juan Non-V was abusing the shield of anonymity to slime someone. Leiter's threat to "out" Juan Non-V, on the other hand, can only be interpreted as a threatening act designed to intimidate.


Ralph E. Luker - 6/23/2005

I think that I agree with you basically and so both of us blog in our own names. On the other hand, I don't think that either of us intends to make that same decision on behalf of other people. Outing a pseudonymous blogger strikes me as a really hostile act. I can imagine a circumstance, I suppose, when I would do it -- but only if the person were consistently and thoroughly venomous to the point of doing material harm to other people.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/23/2005

Ralph --
Which is why, of course, the liberation of anonymity can end up as a prison. Accountability is a wonderful thing. And taking responsibility is another. It means sometimes we take embarassing lumps -- and all of us have one or two in those most public and immediate forums that we regret, some of them rather profoundly -- but I think it is better to take lumps honestly gotten than to hide behind a name that is not one's own.

dc


Ralph E. Luker - 6/23/2005

Well, clearly a big part of the problem is that anonymity or pseudonymity allows a latitude of posts that one wouldn't have if you were blogging in your own name. Crooked Timber and Unfogged are both lefty academic blogs by fairly serious people. Unfogged is completely pseudonymous; Crooked Timber completely in name only (except for comments). There's a certain kind of free-wheeling sex-related posting and lots of talk about personal lives that goes on at Unfogged that doesn't go on at Crooked Timber. I'm not sure that any of the bloggers at Unfogged will ever want to accept responsibility for all the dick joke ribaldery and other stuff that goes on there -- even after tenure. Once you put that kind of thing on the net under pseudonymous cover and then you subsequently come out from under cover, the archives becomes a gold mine for one's critics.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/23/2005

Ralph and KC --
The question, I think, becaomes what matters to a person. Blogging is not a necessity. getting one's opinion out is not something that absolutely has to be done. If blogging could get you into trouble, don't blog. Everyone has the right to speak, and the internet gives everyone the forum to do so. That does not, however, mean that one has the right to do so anonymously. Every so often even at HNN on our blogs, someone will come along and make threats, veiled or otherwise. ralph and I for whatever bizarre reason have drawn some of the same nucases. The threats range from the physical to merely some vague hin tthat they are going to subject us to x or y or z. If we are worried, we can stop blogging. Similarly, if an untenured person, or a grad student, wants to play with grownups, they have to be willing to be a grownup. I realize KC's situation was bad at Brooklyn, and I had an ugly one as well, but I do wonder about just how bad and evil most historians at most schools are. It seems as if there are an awful lot of us out there taking quite a risk if the odds really are not that bad -- just look at the history blogroll that Ralph keeps adding to, seemingly daily. If you must blog anonymously, it seems awfully unfair for the rest of us that you would then be able to toss slings and arrows, however well constructed, the way of the rest of us.

And by the way -- anyone who asserts that simply by having the fact that he blogs revealed to his colleagues would automatically lose his job does not ring true to me. Even untenured folks almost always have some renewal process. The assertion of fear of losing one's job always seems like a trump that people move to pretty quickly. I'm untenured in the University of Texas system, and if anything, my colleagues seem to support my blogging. I thus do not usually buy the "anonymity is critical" trope. If anonymity is, then perhaps for the time being silence should be too.

dc


Robert KC Johnson - 6/23/2005

From reading his original post, though, Leiter also levels a charge of cowardice against the constitutional scholars who disagree with him--he uses the word in his original post. Apparently disagreeing with Leiter makes opens one up to the coward charge.

I'm torn on the issue of blogging anonymously. Basically, I agree with you that it's better to do so under your own name, and I suspect that if I had still been untenured when asked to blog at Cliopatria, I would have done so under my own name.

That said, I know as well as anyone the danger of untenured people expressing their opinions publicly--even when not on, say, a blog like Volokh, which has a clear ideological bent. Given the written statements of some of the BC faculty from the Shadow File, my posts on Cliopatria in favor of political history would have been used against me in the tenure fight. So an untenured person really can never know what item they write publicly that can be used against them. Certainly, if Non-V is an untenured person at Texas, anonymity would be critical for him.


Ralph E. Luker - 6/23/2005

KC, As I indicated here, the reason for Leiter's charge of "cowardice" against Juan Non-Volokh is his pseudonymity. Frankly, I think that any time a pseudonymous blogger forcefully answers someone who blogs in her or his own name it invites a counter-charge of cowardice. There may be very good reasons for pseudonymity on the net. Ogged at Unfogged says, simply, that he would lose his job if he lost his pseudonymity. But there doesn't need to be any mystery about why Leiter accused Non-Volokh of cowardice.
Having said that, I'd have to say that both Leiter and Non-Volokh are two of my less favorite prominent voices on the net. A pox on both of them.