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I suggest that a significant proportion of the population, and probably a larger proportion of the male population, are to a varying extent bisexual, at least during some part of their lives. They are more likely to engage in gay sex if either members of the opposite sex (think single-sex boarding schools, prisons, etc.) are not around, physically attractive members of their own sex are available, or if they’re invited to do so (think seduction) by interesting and charming people. This is more likely to occur when they are relatively young—when their sex drives are relatively high and they are more likely to experiment, partially but not only out of curiosity and a desire to break social taboos, and before they enter into long-term commitments.
It is therefore not surprising that gay men and women will seek sexual partners among those who do not identify as gay and often succeed—more likely because their partners are in fact gay (but not ‘out’) but sometimes because they are bisexual (see above). Adolescent and young adult men and women are generally speaking physically more attractive than older adults and thus disproportionately the object of sexual desire (straight and gay).
I don’t see that the relevance of these remarks has anything to do with whether a particular polity is a republic or an empire.
I further suggest that no moderately thoughtful person, whether he or she is straight or gay or bisexual, should take exception to this analysis. I hope that no libertarian would have a problem with the reality I have described but I guess that some may not like it.
I would really like to see some sources for these claims.
William Marina -
2/9/2005
I have no problems with what consenting adults do, but much of what you list of adults seducing/presssing themselves on children are probably crimes in most societies.
William Marina -
2/9/2005
The Weimar was a very short time, with exteremely unsettled conditions, but the post WWI syndrome was pretty wild here also.
William Marina -
2/9/2005
No, as I indicated, not all can revert, and many more males have problems doing so. Again, it may be changes in the testosterone level, how long did they engage in the behavior?, etc.
William Marina -
2/9/2005
Mark:
1. Re. this point, that is why I pointed to the apparent role of testosterone kicking in, or not, at that critical time. It would be great if we know more about these hormonal effects,
2.That is why, you will note, I have referrred consistently to behaviors rather than labeling anyone by any term as if that was a permanent identification.
C. Wright Mills, some of whose letters I have in my possession (a fellow Hispanic, but thru his mother's side), was one of those who acknowledged experimenting with some homosexual behaviors. When one gets specific, of course, there are a range of such.
Mark Brady -
2/9/2005
In Germany after the First World War the Hohenzollern dynasty was replaced by the Weimar Republic and sexual mores became more, not less, liberal. To what extent, if at all, is this an effective counter-example to Bill's point about republics and empires?
Mark Brady -
2/9/2005
Jason writes, "For that matter, you would probably acknowledge that a lot of straight people succeed at seducing primarily gay youth, too." Indeed.
I want to take this opportunity to draw an important but neglected distinction, that between (1) ephebophilia (the sexual attraction of an adult towards adolescents) and pederasty (the sexual attraction of an adult towards male adolescents) and (2) pedophilia (the sexual attraction of an adult towards prepubescent children). There is no doubt that many instances of pedophilia (including, I suspect, most cases involving Roman Catholic priests) are in fact examples of ephebophilia and pederasty.
Mark Brady -
2/9/2005
I am not an authority on this topic but I thought the evidence indicated that almost all prisoners who engage in heterosexual behavior prior to incarceration revert to heterosexual behavior upon release.
Mark Brady -
2/9/2005
Two thoughts.
1. Doesn't the scientific evidence and don't personal narratives suggest that an individual's lifetime sexual orientation is usually (always?) determined by early childhood at the latest?
2. Certainly there is a difference between sexual behavior and sexual orientation and identity. This is true for bisexuality as much as for heterosexuality and homosexuality. As several authorities have pointed out in recent years, the words "heterosexual" and "homosexual" were coined in the late nineteenth century. Prior to this time, persons were described with respect to the practices they engaged in (buggery, sodomy, etc.) and not the sexual identities that twentieth century sexologists have ascribed to them and with which they themselves have chosen to identify.
William Marina -
2/9/2005
MarK:
On a continuum, the opposite of an Empire, where the State has taken over virtually everything, is not a Republic, which is somewhere toward the middle but still acknowledging a State role but with Laws (not just Positive ones), but a Society or Culture where Family and Religion still have a meaningful role in sustaining the community.
I do think sexual behaviors change in Empires, witness Rome and today.
Jason:
As a libertarian, I do not condemn any sexual behaviors, hetero-bi-homo, that are not forced upon someone, such as rape.
I was simply trying to explain why there has been an outburst on the part of many, not only religious conservatives, against the effort to create an openly gay culture across a wide spectrum in films, art, etc.
I don't know about neutral, but along with C. Wright Mills, I have always tried to be objective, I do not claim to be detached.
Your own comments appear to me to be overly emotional as you are obviously involved, but certainly not on the level of a Justin Raimondo, whose irrational vituperativeness causes me simply to lose respect for
whatever it is he has to say.
Bill Marina
Jason Kuznicki -
2/9/2005
I have no problem at all with what you have just said. For that matter, you would probably acknowledge that a lot of straight people succeed at seducing primarily gay youth, too. And I have no problem there, either.
But I have an enormous when some people try to portray homosexuality as a threat to youth or society, which is precisely what Prof. Marina did. It's not that I don't like YOUR comments, which were clearly value-neutral. What I don't like were HIS comments, which were obviously bigoted slurs.
I trust that any moderately "thoughtful person" can tell the difference.
William Marina -
2/9/2005
Dear Mark,
Studies of inmates in prisons suggest that the more highly sexed will begin to engage in homosexual behaviors as that, other than masturbation, is what is available to them.
When released back into society, as much higher percentage of males find it difficult to resume heterosexual activities than appears to be the case with females.
Bill Marina
William Marina -
2/9/2005
Dear Mark,
I agree that at an early age a number of persons appear to have engaged in some aspect of what might be termed bisexual behavior. That is why, I would suggest, that in males the second kickin of testosterone at puberty is so important toward a future orientation.
In my comments I have always tried to refer to behaviors rather than labeling someone a heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual.
Bill Marina
